yellowlion
Well-known member
- Messages
- 408
- Likes
- 4
Disagree. You can get a profitable method anywhere. In no time flat. Grief and despair provide the discipline and they are unavailable in a demo account.
YL
- Status
Disagree. You can get a profitable method anywhere. In no time flat. Grief and despair provide the discipline and they are unavailable in a demo account.
YL
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yeah, this method may work for you (did you become profitable "in no time flat"?), but would you say that it works for a majority of traders? If it were this way, everyone would be profitable "in no time flat". Could you say that this is the case? Or would you say that they don't learn because they all paper trade? Then why do they all say that 95% of traders lose?
On the other hand, you could have a point if we consider that not everyone might experience the same level of "grief and despair" for losing money - for example, I admit that I was never in despair for losing a few hundreds a month, or giving back the few thousands that my system had made. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe the majority of traders lose, because they really don't mind losing very much.
However, those people who experience "grief and despair" for losing real money will be even more motivated to come up with a good strategy when they are paper trading. I have a friend, who's unemployed and he really can't afford to lose any money, and I am letting him use my paper trading account to see if he can come up with a good method, that will produce consistent profits for a few months. If he will succeed, I will give him the money to trade it (if I'll still have any left). He kept at it for a month and a half already, and he never told me "let me trade your real money immediately, so I can learn faster". Not just that he hasn't told me, but I think he never thought it, and I think if he did, it would be a warning sign of "gambler's mentality", and that I shouldn't give him any money.
To tell you the truth, acting like a gambler myself (and that is why I am now preaching to the contrary) I thought I would make money immediately or I that I would learn faster by investing real money, but it didn't happen. Maybe instead it would have happened (becoming profitable) if I took away the thrill of investing real money until I came up with a profitable method via paper trading. You see, I didn't paper trade also because it seemed pointless and boring. Whereas I think I should have also seen and used paper trading as a "punishment" for not having been profitable in the previous month. Instead, I just kept on filling up my trading account to cover my losses, and that way losses didn't hurt as much. I think in this sense it was an addiction.
Overall I agree with you that, to learn to do things right, you need "some" pain when you make a mistake ("panic" is too much, and it interferes with your logical thinking), which is the reward and punishment method. But if the trader actually doesn't feel pain for losing (like in my case, and in many other cases), then the necessary "punishment" (as in "reward and punishment") is to paper trade until he finds a profitable method, or else he'll just keep on losing money, without caring too much about it. On the other hand, the person who feels real pain and grief for losing will want to paper trade as well, because, as my friend, he won't be able to afford to lose.
Realistically, you can't become profitable "in no time flat" and, whether you care about losing money or you don't care too much (it's like a fee to you, worth paying for the excitement you get), if you want to learn without losing a lot of money in the process, paper trading is the way to go.
It's paradoxycal but, if you want to prove that you are serious as a trader and you seriously want to become profitable, then you actually prove it by paper trading - it's a sign of respect for your money. And if you have no respect for your money, then you can't become profitable. Trust me, I've been screwing around with trading for years. Yes, in the meanwhile, I learned a lot, but I made a majority of superficial trades. The most serious and hard-working part of my trading career has been the work I've done on trading systems, and the automation of them. The rest was a lot of screwing around.
That's the way I feel. At least I can certainly say this applies to me, and probably to all those traders who don't only trade to make money, but, whether they admit it or not, for the thrill of it (or "out of boredom", if you wish). Paper trading is a sacrifice to us, and if we do it, it means we are serious about making money, because we are not trading for the thrill of it, but only to find a method that works. The thrill is taken out. Well, I have explained my point more than enough, by any standards. The truth is that I was explaining it to myself.
Last edited:
It is not possible to be continually successful with a discretionary attitude to trading, I agree with you, there, because you make up new rules as you go along. I believe in the KISS method, in other words, as few rules as possible because, if there are too many one rule will break another, but some rules, nevertheless.
Having said that, I'm afraid that I am not perfect at obeying rules. I try to but.........
Threads , such as these, do help concentrate the mind.
Having said that, I'm afraid that I am not perfect at obeying rules. I try to but.........
Threads , such as these, do help concentrate the mind.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
"...help concentrate the mind"? Thank you. I thought someone by now would have written they "help you go to sleep".
"...concentrate the mind"... funny that you say that, because I am an advocate of automated trading, whereby your mind should not deal with the markets during trading hours, but rather after trading hours, if you are developing your systems, and not at all, afterwards.
"...concentrate the mind"... funny that you say that, because I am an advocate of automated trading, whereby your mind should not deal with the markets during trading hours, but rather after trading hours, if you are developing your systems, and not at all, afterwards.
montmorencyt2w
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,619
- Likes
- 294
Hi Travis,
Just about everything that might be suggested as a way round the problems, you already know, quite well, from what you have said.
The most obvious one being:
When I stopped smoking, it had to be cold-turkey. That may be the only way here.
Perhaps get a trusted friend or family member to run the automated system for you to provide income, and you stay well away from the markets.
Maybe in 6 months or a few years or some long time from now, assuming you have some financial security to take that pressure of you, you might try trading manually again. I think some people react well to those kind of pressures and others don't. Only you know which you are.
Just about everything that might be suggested as a way round the problems, you already know, quite well, from what you have said.
The most obvious one being:
travis said:
When I stopped smoking, it had to be cold-turkey. That may be the only way here.
Perhaps get a trusted friend or family member to run the automated system for you to provide income, and you stay well away from the markets.
Maybe in 6 months or a few years or some long time from now, assuming you have some financial security to take that pressure of you, you might try trading manually again. I think some people react well to those kind of pressures and others don't. Only you know which you are.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yeah, I've tried stopping cold turkey. I start again later. I think I need a more realistic approach. I should say to myself: I have limits, let's try to get a little better. Without pushing myself too hard. I can't say "never again". I've said too many times. It hasn't worked. Maybe, paradoxycally, I should actually allow myself to waste up to 100 dollars a week - so it doesn't get out of control. For example, I smoke a couple of sigarettes (given to me by people) per week, and I never got addicted to it. Well, I don't know what I am saying - actually I totally get addicted to trading and it immediately goes out of control - so I do have to either do nothing, or paper trade. If I get started again, I could blow out my account again (it happened 3 times this year).
What I meant was the thread helps to concentrate the mind on what has to be done to arrive at that idyllic state where one does not have to think----just do!
Like good cooking, most of the work is in the preparation.
I lost a trade this morning because I had a rule that the bar must complete before action is taken. I entered the trade and the bar reversed before completion and resulted in a continuation, instead of a reversal.
That is, partly, the reason why am I reading this thread. If I had made a profit, instead, would I be here?
Split
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Ok, you want to hear my advice from the viewpoint of someone who lost for 12 years with discretionary trading? Simple. Does that rule work in the past? Has it been tested to work? Because if it hasn't, then it makes no sense to use your discipline to follow such rule. If the profitability of that rule cannot be backtested because it's part of a larger discretionary method (that relies heavily on your "discretion"), then you should paper trade that method until facts prove it ("it" or your instincts and intuition, if the method relies on them) to be profitable (by making consistent paper profits for a few months). I haven't tried this method myself and succeeded, but I am simply advising you not to do what I've been doing unsuccessfully for 12 years. Lost, on average, a few hundreds every month, for a total of 50,000 in 12 years. But, wait, recently I've lost much more, because I could afford to lose all the money the automated system was making.
Here's my golden rules again, from another post I wrote above:
Here's my golden rules again, from another post I wrote above:
- If you have a profitable method, use it (it will come natural).
- If you don't have a profitable discretionary method yet, paper trade.
- Don't go trying to force yourself to follow rules that are not proven to work - forget this psycho-bull****, it will just throw you off course, for years. If you are not making money, it's not because there's something wrong with your personality but because you didn't develop a profitable method. The only discipline you need is to paper trade until you have a profitable method. Discipline won't make you a profitable trader (like they say), but it will keep you from losing real money until you become one. Should someone learn how to juggle with balls or with knives right away?
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Mmh... "a need to be abused", the recurring "self-sabotage" thing, mentioned by many traders who use it to motivate their losses...
I am not so sure it's true. I used to say it all the time: "maybe I want to lose". "Maybe I lose because I want to lose". However, it's not true. I hate my job, I hate being at this office, and I would like to get out of here and resign. But I can't because I lost much of my automated trading gains with my discretionary trading. And did I do that because I self-sabotaged? I don't think so. I think I did it because I wanted to succeed too much, so much that I acted impatiently (as I was trading discretionary) and didn't wait for the right entry and exit time. But even before engaging into discretionary trading, I acted impatiently by trying to make money with discretionary trading when I still do not have a consitently profitable method. And, as I say all the time, if you don't have such a method, you should paper trade. Then, maybe I can't develop that method, because of my psychology and because of how I take losses personally (and can't accept them, and therefore do not conceive using a stoploss)...
So I have to rectify everything I said once again. Psychology does play a role after all. If I can't find a profitable method because of my personality, then learning discretionary trading is indeed largely based on psychological factors. Mind you, I said "learning" a profitable method, not "using" a profitable method. Indeed, once you have a profitable method, psychology won't matter. The problem is that because of psychology you may never learn that method. This only as far as discretionary trading. Automated trading has nothing to do with psychology.
So we can sum it up and say that psychology plays a role in one fourth of all trading - the ability of the trader to develop a profitable discretionary trading method. It does not play any role in automated trading, and it does not play any role in using that profitable discretionary method once you have it. Then of course to all those for whom learning a profitable method is the thing they're dealing with, it will appear that it's all about psychology as they say. WhaI I wish to add is also that if you have the wrong psychological make-up you will not be able to learn a profitable discretionary method, like it was for me (12 years of constant losses).
So if you consider that you either are fit to trade discretionary or you are not fit, then psychology's role is again at zero, or rather the need to work on your psychology is zero, because if you are unfit for discretionary trading usually you cannot fix it. So discretionary trading depends on psychology, but you still won't become profitable by working on psychology. It will be faster to become profitable by developing an automated trading system (which is exactly what happened to me).
Let me describe what happens to me when I engage in discretionary trading. At the start I am calm. I look at the chart and see an opportunity. I hesitate a few minutes, then I enter. That's going to be the best and most objective trade of the day. Then if it goes my way, and I make money, I get out of it and everything is fine, but there is one new problem: I am feeling good and confident. This will encourage me to make another trade and if it will be successful, it will make me even more confident and cause me a second problem: it will make me excited.
Pretty soon, my eyes are wide open with excitement, and I look like I took some drugs, maybe marijuana. I take my third trade, and I may get lucky this time, because by now I am not reasoning any more. Then I keep going until I finally make a mistake, definitely by my fifth trade. When that happens, I wait and hope, and then, as loss increases, it becomes a Hail Mary trade. Usually it can go on either until it turns profitable, or until, after a few days, my margin is not enough any more. Recently I have been doubling up on losers as well, which makes me recoup (easily), or almsot blow out my account within one day.
When I trade discretionary, after staring at charts for over 20 minutes, I turn into a junkie in every aspect. I don't think there is a solution. In 12 years, I haven't found a profitable way to discretionary trade. I can't keep calm, I can't keep distant, I can't be patient, I can't help taking losses very personally, I can't do half of the things I'd need to do. I basically have such characteristics that I blow out my account within a few days of discretionary trading.
I am not so sure it's true. I used to say it all the time: "maybe I want to lose". "Maybe I lose because I want to lose". However, it's not true. I hate my job, I hate being at this office, and I would like to get out of here and resign. But I can't because I lost much of my automated trading gains with my discretionary trading. And did I do that because I self-sabotaged? I don't think so. I think I did it because I wanted to succeed too much, so much that I acted impatiently (as I was trading discretionary) and didn't wait for the right entry and exit time. But even before engaging into discretionary trading, I acted impatiently by trying to make money with discretionary trading when I still do not have a consitently profitable method. And, as I say all the time, if you don't have such a method, you should paper trade. Then, maybe I can't develop that method, because of my psychology and because of how I take losses personally (and can't accept them, and therefore do not conceive using a stoploss)...
So I have to rectify everything I said once again. Psychology does play a role after all. If I can't find a profitable method because of my personality, then learning discretionary trading is indeed largely based on psychological factors. Mind you, I said "learning" a profitable method, not "using" a profitable method. Indeed, once you have a profitable method, psychology won't matter. The problem is that because of psychology you may never learn that method. This only as far as discretionary trading. Automated trading has nothing to do with psychology.
So we can sum it up and say that psychology plays a role in one fourth of all trading - the ability of the trader to develop a profitable discretionary trading method. It does not play any role in automated trading, and it does not play any role in using that profitable discretionary method once you have it. Then of course to all those for whom learning a profitable method is the thing they're dealing with, it will appear that it's all about psychology as they say. WhaI I wish to add is also that if you have the wrong psychological make-up you will not be able to learn a profitable discretionary method, like it was for me (12 years of constant losses).
So if you consider that you either are fit to trade discretionary or you are not fit, then psychology's role is again at zero, or rather the need to work on your psychology is zero, because if you are unfit for discretionary trading usually you cannot fix it. So discretionary trading depends on psychology, but you still won't become profitable by working on psychology. It will be faster to become profitable by developing an automated trading system (which is exactly what happened to me).
Let me describe what happens to me when I engage in discretionary trading. At the start I am calm. I look at the chart and see an opportunity. I hesitate a few minutes, then I enter. That's going to be the best and most objective trade of the day. Then if it goes my way, and I make money, I get out of it and everything is fine, but there is one new problem: I am feeling good and confident. This will encourage me to make another trade and if it will be successful, it will make me even more confident and cause me a second problem: it will make me excited.
Pretty soon, my eyes are wide open with excitement, and I look like I took some drugs, maybe marijuana. I take my third trade, and I may get lucky this time, because by now I am not reasoning any more. Then I keep going until I finally make a mistake, definitely by my fifth trade. When that happens, I wait and hope, and then, as loss increases, it becomes a Hail Mary trade. Usually it can go on either until it turns profitable, or until, after a few days, my margin is not enough any more. Recently I have been doubling up on losers as well, which makes me recoup (easily), or almsot blow out my account within one day.
When I trade discretionary, after staring at charts for over 20 minutes, I turn into a junkie in every aspect. I don't think there is a solution. In 12 years, I haven't found a profitable way to discretionary trade. I can't keep calm, I can't keep distant, I can't be patient, I can't help taking losses very personally, I can't do half of the things I'd need to do. I basically have such characteristics that I blow out my account within a few days of discretionary trading.
Last edited:
tenbobtrader
Guest
- Messages
- 450
- Likes
- 140
"some people lose their heads cold sober. Cards, dice, pool, it makes no difference.
You want to be a winner, you got to keep your head. You got to remember that there's a loser somewhere in you, whining at you.
You got to learn to cut his water off."
Bert
in Walter Tevis
The Hustler
all the best & good luck with it Travis :clover:
later
Andy
You want to be a winner, you got to keep your head. You got to remember that there's a loser somewhere in you, whining at you.
You got to learn to cut his water off."
Bert
in Walter Tevis
The Hustler
all the best & good luck with it Travis :clover:
later
Andy
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
"Losing my head cold sober", yes, that's exactly what happens to me. Well, "compulsive gambler" is also a good and common description. Best explained in these two movies:
Watch Owning Mahowny movie on LetMeWatchThis.com Free Online Movie and TV Downloads
Watch Rogue Trader movie on LetMeWatchThis.com Free Online Movie and TV Downloads
It's me, in both movies.
Watch Owning Mahowny movie on LetMeWatchThis.com Free Online Movie and TV Downloads
Watch Rogue Trader movie on LetMeWatchThis.com Free Online Movie and TV Downloads
It's me, in both movies.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Relapsed. And doubling up on losing positions... disaster. I felt that uneasiness, that boredom, that emptiness, and I felt the irresistible urge to fill it with a discretionary trade. Losing 500 right now. Believe it or not - after all the things I've been writing.
Good job it's Friday. Keep writing. I think that you have done me some good but you, still, have to convince yourself.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
You are right. I am a good preacher, but I don't put my preachings into practice. Well, maybe you can tell me if you have similar problems. That way maybe you can do me some good, too. Finally I closed the series of trades (about 10) and ended up losing, once again, about 100 dollars. Lucky again, like the other day, because I usually lose thousands. Anyway, guys. In one week of diary already two relapses. Am I not disgusting? There's something inside me that pushes me to trade, and that overcomes all the barriers I try to place between myself and discretionary trading: hiding the trading platform, getting rid of quotes and charts in it (it has to stay on for automated trading, or I would uninstall it), hiding excel... but it's never enough. In the past the only thing that kept me from investing was having an empty account. BUT. There is one period, in early 2008 and 2007 when I was just back-testing and forward-esting and back then I stayed without making a trade for almost a year. So I definitely can do it, but I need to be frantically developing new systems - something I can't be doing all the time (for lack of ideas and energy).
----
Unbelievable! After writing all this **** - it's as if there was another person inside me (one writes and the other one trades) - I went and made another trade and actually made over 100 dollars and broke even for the day (the systems didn't make any money today). So today no losses, after a few two hours of emotional roller coaster and considering I got very lucky. Which means, once again, that for me discretionary trading, from a financial point of view is useless.
---
After a few minutes, I thought of yet another thing to add:
After making even just 20 dollars with my discretionary trading, I am left with a feeling that I am good. I am left feeling good about myself. Whereas instead, if I made ten times as much with my automated systems, say 200 or even 400 dollars, I would not feel as good. I would need to make 1000 to feel good, and still I would feel like I got lucky and I didn't deserve the profit made. Instead, with just 200 dollars made every day I think I would feel very good about myself. Only, unfortunately it rarely happens. I wish someone could teach me to trade discretionary and make money consistently. But I wish they taught me almost univocal rules, and not told me to go by instinct like most people do. Many profitable discretionary traders don't exactly know what they are doing, or don't know how to explain it in words, or don't wish to explain it clearly at least. I am different. I enjoy explaining things clearly. If you ask me something, I'll either say I want to keep it secret, or explain it really clearly. Nothing in between.
-----------
13:25 CST
What the hell, another 300 on the CL, just now. I called a friend. He kept telling about how he was losing 2500 in paper trading on the CL, so I figured the CL must be really low for him to be losing 2500 by going LONG. So I went back yet another time to my trading platform and made 300 dollars in a few minutes. So today I am up 300, thanks to my discretionary trading. Which still means nothing because today I am up 300 but - as far as discretionary trading - I am down several thousands in the past 30 days, and several thousands in the previous 30 days. All it means is that I have an addiction - that's for sure.
Another note. If you want to go against the trend this is the best time. At around this time you tend to have reversals, viceversa if you want to go with the trend, you should have traded until a few hours ago. It's interesting: some traders tend to do one thing and they should trade at certain times, others do the other and should focus on different hours, others can do both. I can only go against the trend, but I can't wait till around these hours - so I just lose and lose.
----
Unbelievable! After writing all this **** - it's as if there was another person inside me (one writes and the other one trades) - I went and made another trade and actually made over 100 dollars and broke even for the day (the systems didn't make any money today). So today no losses, after a few two hours of emotional roller coaster and considering I got very lucky. Which means, once again, that for me discretionary trading, from a financial point of view is useless.
---
After a few minutes, I thought of yet another thing to add:
After making even just 20 dollars with my discretionary trading, I am left with a feeling that I am good. I am left feeling good about myself. Whereas instead, if I made ten times as much with my automated systems, say 200 or even 400 dollars, I would not feel as good. I would need to make 1000 to feel good, and still I would feel like I got lucky and I didn't deserve the profit made. Instead, with just 200 dollars made every day I think I would feel very good about myself. Only, unfortunately it rarely happens. I wish someone could teach me to trade discretionary and make money consistently. But I wish they taught me almost univocal rules, and not told me to go by instinct like most people do. Many profitable discretionary traders don't exactly know what they are doing, or don't know how to explain it in words, or don't wish to explain it clearly at least. I am different. I enjoy explaining things clearly. If you ask me something, I'll either say I want to keep it secret, or explain it really clearly. Nothing in between.
-----------
13:25 CST
What the hell, another 300 on the CL, just now. I called a friend. He kept telling about how he was losing 2500 in paper trading on the CL, so I figured the CL must be really low for him to be losing 2500 by going LONG. So I went back yet another time to my trading platform and made 300 dollars in a few minutes. So today I am up 300, thanks to my discretionary trading. Which still means nothing because today I am up 300 but - as far as discretionary trading - I am down several thousands in the past 30 days, and several thousands in the previous 30 days. All it means is that I have an addiction - that's for sure.
Another note. If you want to go against the trend this is the best time. At around this time you tend to have reversals, viceversa if you want to go with the trend, you should have traded until a few hours ago. It's interesting: some traders tend to do one thing and they should trade at certain times, others do the other and should focus on different hours, others can do both. I can only go against the trend, but I can't wait till around these hours - so I just lose and lose.
Last edited:
I am with Tenbobtrader ... "You got to learn to cut his water off."
Maybe my experience with stopping smoking may do some good...
I couldn't give up. Each time I decided to quit, I would buy cigarettes again. It started to feel that I wasn't in charge! :^) So after many attempts, I started to watch myself to see what it is that makes my go get another cigarette *even though I do not want to*. So I would smoke, enough to satisfy my craving, and then make a promise to myself that I will not break down and start smoking this time. Then I would watch myself - and observe how I talk myself out of stopping *this time* because there was some important reason and I would definitely do it tomorrow. This was the pattern few more times so I promised myself not to fall for this, to remind myself that it is just a ploy an not real. So again I watched myself talking myself out of quitting. It was quite unreal. But closely observing myself I could feel that **I did not want to quit**. The rational me said "quit", my subconscious said "forget it, why now?". I could see I stood no chance. So I decided to work on my subconscious, I created an image of my lungs being, as a result of smoking, rough like a sandpaper and each time I breathed the walls would rub against each other. After about a week, I felt I didn't want to smoke a gave up with no problem and never smoked not felt a need to since then.
My guess would be that you are addicted to some hormonal rush (endorphins?) triggered by your trading. You might try to observe your thought processes that lead you to 1. resuming your discretionary trading and, when you succumb :^), 2. stopping you bailing out when the trade goes against you. Then work out how to break the habit.
Good luck,
Karel
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Thanks, Karel, for your very good description: what was smoking for you (wanting to quit, and not wanting to quit at once) trading is for me. Definitely a perfect example and description of the feelings I experience.
However, I find it hard to work on my subconscious: my subconscious is smarter than me, and doesn't get deceived by stories of lungs being like sand-paper. First of all, I don't know how to get in touch with my subconscious. Where do I find him, to talk to him? And, if I tell him "look at the balance, discretionary trading is bad...", he's going to tell me "get out of here... it is just because you are not using stoplosses, or else you'd be making 100% returns a month: remember last November?"
"Endorphins"... actually, I have a feeling that a lot of this has to do with not having a girlfriend, because otherwise I would make a sexy time with her every time I have those feelings of emptiness.
---
Another thing is that, besides for example today being really happy about making those 300 dollars I eventually made, I actually deep down inside me feel that I am totally capable of making money. I can't accept that so many people make money trading so fast after their start, and I still cannot be profitable after 12 years. I cannot accept my limit. I was taught by my father to always push my limits further, and not trading discretionary because I am not profitable seems like quitting to me.
---
But thank you. All the things you told me will stay with me, and will be useful at one time or another. Right now, I don't feel like you gave me the "eureka" answer, but maybe you planted an idea in me that will grow... and eventually make me solve the problem, like you solved yours.
However, I find it hard to work on my subconscious: my subconscious is smarter than me, and doesn't get deceived by stories of lungs being like sand-paper. First of all, I don't know how to get in touch with my subconscious. Where do I find him, to talk to him? And, if I tell him "look at the balance, discretionary trading is bad...", he's going to tell me "get out of here... it is just because you are not using stoplosses, or else you'd be making 100% returns a month: remember last November?"
"Endorphins"... actually, I have a feeling that a lot of this has to do with not having a girlfriend, because otherwise I would make a sexy time with her every time I have those feelings of emptiness.
---
Another thing is that, besides for example today being really happy about making those 300 dollars I eventually made, I actually deep down inside me feel that I am totally capable of making money. I can't accept that so many people make money trading so fast after their start, and I still cannot be profitable after 12 years. I cannot accept my limit. I was taught by my father to always push my limits further, and not trading discretionary because I am not profitable seems like quitting to me.
---
But thank you. All the things you told me will stay with me, and will be useful at one time or another. Right now, I don't feel like you gave me the "eureka" answer, but maybe you planted an idea in me that will grow... and eventually make me solve the problem, like you solved yours.
Last edited:
barjon
Legendary member
- Messages
- 10,752
- Likes
- 1,863
travis
That's your rational self talking and you're right. Unfortunately that rebel demon inside you just hates rules of any kind, even loosely framed ones drawn by your rational self. eg: rational self - " I should cut this trade now": rebel demon " no way, man, let's rock and roll".
If you can't cast out your rebel demon then you have to subvert him in your discretionary trading as you have done in your automated trading. Maybe this somewhat simplistic piece would help T2W Day Trading & Forex Community
Cheers
jon
montmorencyt2w
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,619
- Likes
- 294
Hi Travis,
As before, you yourself know the answers to your problem better than any of us here (notwithstanding all the good advice given above). The problem is putting the solutions into effect.
For example, you said that for a whole year while you were developing automated systems, you didn't try trading in a discretionary way. You clearly get a buzz from programming (can relate to that), and it might be an even bigger buzz than you get from discretionary trading (and we should return to exactly what _you_ mean by that phrase below). It seems to me that what you shouldn't be doing is trading, but writing systems for other people to trade, either with their own money, or (under very strict conditions, and of course, only the right people) your money. In an ideal world, you would never even trade your own automated system, let along your discretionary one, so you may be able to uninstall the appropriate software from computers in your immediate vicinity, and have some distance from temptation.
I don't know how realistic this is in your particular situation, but maybe it will give you food for thought.
Quite frankly, I'd be damned prouder of having successfully written an automated system that worked, than being able to trade manually day in, day out, hour after hour. Any fool can work.
Discretionary systems: I wonder exactly what you mean by this phrase. You haven't defined it, and I don't think anyone else has asked. From reading far more experienced traders than myself, I gather that they very often have strict rules, but these rules don't define every possible situation; they are just a framework. Sometimes a setup can be perfect on paper, but the experienced trader doesn't feel that it's right somehow, and passes it up. That's one example of a discretionary (non)-trade, but it doesn't mean there were no rules involved.
I think that what I am getting it is that you seem to be posing automated trading and discretionary trading as two extremes of a spectrum, and I believe that may be a false dichotomy.
The hardest thing to program into any system is what we normally call "common sense". That's the discretion that a human trader brings to the act of trading, or should do.
As before, you yourself know the answers to your problem better than any of us here (notwithstanding all the good advice given above). The problem is putting the solutions into effect.
For example, you said that for a whole year while you were developing automated systems, you didn't try trading in a discretionary way. You clearly get a buzz from programming (can relate to that), and it might be an even bigger buzz than you get from discretionary trading (and we should return to exactly what _you_ mean by that phrase below). It seems to me that what you shouldn't be doing is trading, but writing systems for other people to trade, either with their own money, or (under very strict conditions, and of course, only the right people) your money. In an ideal world, you would never even trade your own automated system, let along your discretionary one, so you may be able to uninstall the appropriate software from computers in your immediate vicinity, and have some distance from temptation.
I don't know how realistic this is in your particular situation, but maybe it will give you food for thought.
Quite frankly, I'd be damned prouder of having successfully written an automated system that worked, than being able to trade manually day in, day out, hour after hour. Any fool can work.
Discretionary systems: I wonder exactly what you mean by this phrase. You haven't defined it, and I don't think anyone else has asked. From reading far more experienced traders than myself, I gather that they very often have strict rules, but these rules don't define every possible situation; they are just a framework. Sometimes a setup can be perfect on paper, but the experienced trader doesn't feel that it's right somehow, and passes it up. That's one example of a discretionary (non)-trade, but it doesn't mean there were no rules involved.
I think that what I am getting it is that you seem to be posing automated trading and discretionary trading as two extremes of a spectrum, and I believe that may be a false dichotomy.
The hardest thing to program into any system is what we normally call "common sense". That's the discretion that a human trader brings to the act of trading, or should do.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yes, thank you. I just read about "Jack" and his method, even though it's not a real person (but maybe the author talks about himself). I've done what Jack has done, by devising a method that allows me to make money - automated trading. I guess the only thing missing is making the system perfect so that it'll make money every day, which it doesn't. That way I won't come home, find a loss, and try to recoup it (and then usually lose more money). Right now the system has a drawdown as long as a few days. To be good enough it'd have to close every day as a positive day. Then I don't know if I'll find other reasons (I think there are) to start trading discretionary - first one I can think of is boredom. As I said I get a lot of excitement by trying to make money in the market. I think everyone will agree that it's one of the most exciting things.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
You make interesting points simply by quoting what you quoted and by your remarks. I don't know how to reply, because I am still thinking about it. I will quote in red the things that got me thinking (some things you are quoting, by Brett, I've been saying for many posts, those about psychology not being helpful). Sometimes people make me think about something new simply by quoting something I said. Other times I read my old posts without knowing they're mine... and I say "who said this brilliant thing?", then when I find out it's me I say "wow, how could I be so knowledgeable back then?". Even when I was years away from being profitable I was writing brilliant things that still make sense today, because you could be doing 80% right, but that 20% you're doing wrong may keep you from being profitable. With automated trading it's faster to find out what it is (you find out before you even start trading). With discretionary trading it's foggy world, and you may never find out (so far it's my case).
- Status
