Job Category of a Full Time Spreadbetter?

I the last few months I have become consistently profitable at spreadbetting and that I am sure that is set to continue for the rest of my natch. So I guess I am a fulltime spreadbetter now.

Previous to this my work/life status was that of a house person i.e. my girlfriend was keeping me during my trading education. I was being the house husband without the ring and the signing of that book in church or the registry office which binds one to the biggest contract one will ever sign in ones life. A one that few people understand until it's too late.

Anyway, I went to take out some home insurance this week and was asked what my occupation was. I had not considered what the answer to that was before this and the proposal form did not have a suitable category. I imagine this is going to be the case for not only insurances but for credit cards and everything else where you have to declare your occupation!

What is also quite concerning is that I remember many years ago a friend of my fathers was a profesional gambler and there was some talk of him not being able to borrow any money because of his occupation.

I would appreciate some advice from those that are in the same position and how you get around the job category and obtaining finance/credit cards etc issues.

Thanks

dingerx said:

I the last few months I have become consistently profitable at spreadbetting and that I am sure that is set to continue for the rest of my natch. So I guess I am a fulltime spreadbetter now.

Previous to this my work/life status was that of a house person i.e. my girlfriend was keeping me during my trading education. I was being the house husband without the ring and the signing of that book in church or the registry office which binds one to the biggest contract one will ever sign in ones life. A one that few people understand until it's too late.

Anyway, I went to take out some home insurance this week and was asked what my occupation was. I had not considered what the answer to that was before this and the proposal form did not have a suitable category. I imagine this is going to be the case for not only insurances but for credit cards and everything else where you have to declare your occupation!

What is also quite concerning is that I remember many years ago a friend of my fathers was a profesional gambler and there was some talk of him not being able to borrow any money because of his occupation.

I would appreciate some advice from those that are in the same position and how you get around the job category and obtaining finance/credit cards etc issues.

Thanks

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Get a job. No matter how trivial and trifling. At least you will have a recognised status.

Hi dingerx - Not able to answer your question directly but be aware of the T&C of your SB account. Mine requires that changes in circumstances are declared as soon as possible in order to retain the account. Failure to comply invalidates the contract and can lead to closure of the account.

They have confirmed to me that "circumstances" includes employment and salary details. It is possible that a SB company could reject your request to withdraw profits if they find you have not declared cirucmstances to them, and continued to run an account which they would not have opened for you if you had come to them as a new customer under your current circumstances.

Hi dingerx,
Welcome to T2W.

There are hundreds - if not thousands - of jobs that aren't categorised individually under the 'occupation' heading of the software that insurance companies and numerous other organisations use. Therefore, it's a case of making a 'best fit' using the options available. Imagine you're a trader at an IB or prop' firm - what would you say then? The fact that you're a spread bettor working from the kitchen table of your GF's bedsit (just kidding!) is of no interest or concern to the insurance company. If you really, really are struggling, just say you work in 'financial services'. Not withstanding what Tom says in his post, in the unlikely event that anyone ever queries your job/employment status, you can say - quite honestly and legitimately - that while 'financial services' doesn't accurately describe what you do, it was the best option available offered by the software at the time.

I've done exactly this for years!
Tim.

Thank you for all your replies guys.

counter_violent, it's an idea but I bit too drastic for me... thank you anyway

tomorton, thank you the reminder of Sbetters T&C's. I've no probelm with my occupation category with my current spreadbetting company. When I signed up they had a category of "homemaker" which fitted exactly. Although I will now have to inform them that I am full time spreadbettter and if they want any proof then they can have a look at my account.

timsk, great answer and thank you very much for the welcome to this super resource for traders. It's funny but the nearest category for the insurance policy the telephone agent and I could find was that of a financial analyst. Well... as a scalper I do look at the calendar of economic news announcements on a daily basis.... that's about as close as I get to funnymentals...... lol.

timsk, do you apply your practice or have you ever applied your practice of "best fit" to obtaining finance/loans/mortgages credit cards etc.

Thank you once again for all your replies, much appreciated.

dingerx said:

I the last few months I have become consistently profitable at spreadbetting and that I am sure that is set to continue for the rest of my natch. So I guess I am a fulltime spreadbetter now.

Previous to this my work/life status was that of a house person i.e. my girlfriend was keeping me during my trading education. I was being the house husband without the ring and the signing of that book in church or the registry office which binds one to the biggest contract one will ever sign in ones life. A one that few people understand until it's too late.

Anyway, I went to take out some home insurance this week and was asked what my occupation was. I had not considered what the answer to that was before this and the proposal form did not have a suitable category. I imagine this is going to be the case for not only insurances but for credit cards and everything else where you have to declare your occupation!

What is also quite concerning is that I remember many years ago a friend of my fathers was a profesional gambler and there was some talk of him not being able to borrow any money because of his occupation.

I would appreciate some advice from those that are in the same position and how you get around the job category and obtaining finance/credit cards etc issues.

Thanks

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I am a full time casino gambler and full time trader, it was very difficult for me to find a suitable job category, so i formed a ltd compny as a director , problem solved for about 200 pounds /year, every 2 -3 years just open a new one again.

dingerx said:

tomorton, thank you the reminder of Sbetters T&C's. I've no probelm with my occupation category with my current spreadbetting company. When I signed up they had a category of "homemaker" which fitted exactly. Although I will now have to inform them that I am full time spreadbettter and if they want any proof then they can have a look at my account.

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dingerx, you are looking at this too narrowly.

When a new client signs up with your or any SB firm, I am sure they are required to declare not just what category their employment fits into (or most nearly fits into). They also demand your employment status, salary and details of savings. I am pretty sure they will say they have to do this as per FCA requirements, both for customer protection and as an anti-money-laundering strategy.

The point is, if any of these criteria change so significantly that, if someone applied for a new account with your current status (i.e. job title = none, salary = £0), if the firm would refuse such an application from a prospective new client, they are also entitled to ignore the contract you have with them as an existing client if you did not inform them as required by their T&C. Effectively, as you have breached the contract, they are no longer bound by it.

No need to argue the point, why not write to your SB firm and tell them you have no job and no salary and see what they do? I'd be interested as I would like to give up my own employment.

tomorton said:

dingerx, you are looking at this too narrowly.

When a new client signs up with your or any SB firm, I am sure they are required to declare not just what category their employment fits into (or most nearly fits into). They also demand your employment status, salary and details of savings. I am pretty sure they will say they have to do this as per FCA requirements, both for customer protection and as an anti-money-laundering strategy.

The point is, if any of these criteria change so significantly that, if someone applied for a new account with your current status (i.e. job title = none, salary = £0), if the firm would refuse such an application from a prospective new client, they are also entitled to ignore the contract you have with them as an existing client if you did not inform them as required by their T&C. Effectively, as you have breached the contract, they are no longer bound by it.

No need to argue the point, why not write to your SB firm and tell them you have no job and no salary and see what they do? I'd be interested as I would like to give up my own employment.

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All information I gave them was true, I would not have it any other way. That is why I am here asking advice about my job status so I do not fall foul of the law when entering into any contracts, be it with an SB firm, insurance, credit card company or whatever. The SB firm were informed that I did not have a salary which would not be hard to guess when I was a homemaker. One thing which I have not mentioned to the board here but was on my application is that I have a very small net income from a buy to let. I receive what one would receive if doing a few hours a week at a part time job on the minimum wage. I did not think it was significant enough to mention but perhaps I was wrong. I do have a considerable amount of equity in both my own home and the BTL property though.

Why don't you ask your SB firm if they would still have you if you gave up your employment?

up-down, thank you for sharing your solution. I presume you are a card counter at one deck black jack, although I think one deck was done away with a long time ago. May I ask you what the £200 per year is for and why create a new company every 2/3 years?

Thank you

I could do that dingerx, and will definitely have to when we get nearer the decision point. But even if they would accept my new status, I am obliged to let them know of it, that is an equally key point for the unwary.

Sounds like you're doing well and I hope to be in the same boat in months not years.

dingerx said:

. . . timsk, do you apply your practice or have you ever applied your practice of "best fit" to obtaining finance/loans/mortgages credit cards etc.

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Hi dingerx,
Ha, well, my rather weak answer is almost certainly yes - but I can't remember any details I'm afraid as I haven't done anything like this for a few years at least. I have to say that I'm not nearly as cautious as someone like Tom is about these things, as I take the view that most of this stuff is just a box ticking exercise to demonstrate to regulators that the compliance departments of the insurance and mortgage firms etc. have undertaken due diligence and done everything according to the book. It's just an ar$e covering exercise and, for the most part, a nonsense IMO. That said, I never borrow money and I'm fortunate to have an income from other sources along with very few expenses, i.e. no children!
Tim.

I know what you're saying Tim, and also dingerx - but we all await the bright sunny morning when we send an email to our SB firm saying I'd like to withdraw £10k of profits if you please.

I think its fairly predictable they will have a procedure to go through. They're likely to say to themselves, wait a minute, should we really be paying out this money? Have we been through the due diligence? Are they really who they say they are? Shouldn't we ask for proof they're legit? etc. etc.

tomorton said:

I know what you're saying Tim, and also dingerx - but we all await the bright sunny morning when we send an email to our SB firm saying I'd like to withdraw £10k of profits if you please.

I think its fairly predictable they will have a procedure to go through. They're likely to say to themselves, wait a minute, should we really be paying out this money? Have we been through the due diligence? Are they really who they say they are? Shouldn't we ask for proof they're legit? etc. etc.

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I'm not advocating anything other than being truthfull with organisations that one does business with.

In regard to making withdrawals. I don't think there will be any problem as the SB firm would have had to comply with the FCA rules and the money laundering laws before they accepted your deposit. If they decide to check you out now and find that you are not who you say you are then that would be an admission that they were not in compliance at the outset.

As you will be aware it's possible to open a Sbet account in 10 minutes. However, that does not mean that checks have not been made between submitting the application and getting confirmation that the account is open. My understanding is that in this process at least the electoral roll is checked and also ones credit file with the likes of Experian or Equifax etc. I'm pretty sure ones financial details will be ran through an algorythm with a points system to determine whether to allow the opening of the account. If the application fails on one of these counts then it will probably be reffered to be a human being for consideration.

I agree with your important point of being diligent in keeping organisations up to date if your economic or work status changes though. It is important to do this for the former with your SB firm as they want to be able to assess whether you are good for any liability you may incurr by blowing through your margin. The recent debacle with the swissy is a nasty example of this. Similarly with lending institiution they want to be sure you have the resources to repay the. With regard to the latter I think it is particularly important to do this with any type of insurance as ones premium is based on ones occupation e.g. anyone who works full time in the licensed trade invariable pays more for their car insurance than others who do not.

The bottom line in my humbel opinion is that if you have been perfectly truthful on your original application and on any changes to date then there is nothing to fear.

dingerx said:

The bottom line in my humbel opinion is that if you have been perfectly truthful on your original application and on any changes to date then there is nothing to fear.

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Yes that is the point, tell them the situation and then tell them when it changes. Cheers now.

tomorton said:

I know what you're saying Tim, and also dingerx - but we all await the bright sunny morning when we send an email to our SB firm saying I'd like to withdraw £10k of profits if you please.

I think its fairly predictable they will have a procedure to go through. They're likely to say to themselves, wait a minute, should we really be paying out this money? Have we been through the due diligence? Are they really who they say they are? Shouldn't we ask for proof they're legit? etc. etc.

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Hi Tom,
I sure hope you're wrong about this and, for a number of reasons, I'd be extremely surprised if this ever happens. Firstly, all SB firms enable clients to withdraw funds via a simple online procedure. I'd never use a firm where I have to go cap in hand and write a nice e-mail asking if I can withdraw my own money! True to say, I've never made a withdrawal as large as £10k, but I have taken out around £1k at a time without any problem at all. Legally, I wouldn't have thought a SB firm wouldn't have any reason to stop clients withdrawing their own funds and the negative publicity it would generate for them if they tried would be so great that it would be business suicide. As I've never heard of this happening, I assume it's extremely rare - and long may that continue!
Tim.

Well Tim, I might be wrong. But how will we know?

The SB firms won't say much - security; the clients who knowingly breached their contracts and got away with it aren't going to confess - they may even still be doing it; the clients who unknowingly got away with it won't know to tell us anything.

But think of parallels - how hard it is to get an insurance claim, or a refund on some sub-par goods or services, or to get unfair charges reimbursed, or to get a tax rebate, and how long it takes. Its certain that SB firms will go through just as stringent checks before releasing money. And at this point, if we're talking about profits, not deposited funds, its not your money.

Hi Tom,

tomorton said:

Well Tim, I might be wrong. But how will we know?.

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Yes indeed, good point. Clarification from the horses mouth would be helpful. @highbury fx @Jason Rogers @capitalspreads @LLSS - please can any of you guys outline the policy of the firms you're with regarding clients wanting to make large withdrawals?

tomorton said:

The SB firms won't say much - security; the clients who knowingly breached their contracts and got away with it aren't going to confess - they may even still be doing it; the clients who unknowingly got away with it won't know to tell us anything..

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Yes, I take your point. But, equally, how will the SB firms themselves know when the client has breached the contract? I've never been asked any further questions after opening and funding the account by any of the 3 SB firms I've had accounts with. I would think it very odd if they suddenly started making checks and asking questions when I want to withdraw profits. After all, why don't they ask the same questions on the occasions when I've lost money hand over fist!!! When I blew up my account 10 years ago, I didn't get a friendly rep' on the phone wanting to know whether or not I was in breach of contract and, had I been, I'm sure they wouldn't have refunded my losses!

tomorton said:

But think of parallels - how hard it is to get an insurance claim, or a refund on some sub-par goods or services, or to get unfair charges reimbursed, or to get a tax rebate, and how long it takes. Its certain that SB firms will go through just as stringent checks before releasing money. And at this point, if we're talking about profits, not deposited funds, its not your money.

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Parallels Tom? I'm not convinced. I think withdrawing profits which the SB firm can see how you've made is a very different proposition to making an insurance claim or getting a refund for sub-par goods or services. The only time I've ever heard of SB firms refusing to pay out is if they think the client is in breach of their T&Cs, for example by using an arb' algorithm to scalp profits etc. Other than that, it's when a freak spike occurs due to an in house software glitch, and then they claw back the profits. So long as the profits have been earned fairly and squarely, they have no earthly reason to stop clients from withdrawing them at any time. There may be security issues preventing clients from withdrawing large amounts in quick succession - just to ensure that the money is being withdrawn by the client and not by criminals. Otherwise, what's the point? Allowing clients to open accounts but not allowing them to withdraw profits - or making the process difficult and long winded when they do - is a sure fire way to drive customers into the arms of competitors.
Tim.

If I lose £10k at spreadbetting, breaching the SB firm's T&C in doing so, then that's my look-out, why would the firm object?

But if I made £10k using their services, and their T&C say I was not entitled to use their services, they stand to save themselves £10k if they can show I breached our contract - they would no longer be bound by it. So its unreasonable to think they will not check clients' compliance and will not enforce a breach of contract.