Skill's weekend teaser

This is a discussion on Skill's weekend teaser within the General Trading Chat forums, part of the Reception category; No, the motive force is now coming from the plane towing it... I mean, this is really basic stuff....

View Poll Results: What will happen?
The plane will take off normally 25 40.32%
The plane will remain stationary 32 51.61%
The plane will run out of conveyor belt before it can take off 5 8.06%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:06pm   #271
 
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Skill Leverage started this thread No, the motive force is now coming from the plane towing it... I mean, this is really basic stuff.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:08pm   #272
 
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"I acknowledge the OP could have been worded slightly better"
Aha !
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:09pm   #273
 
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Perhaps then there wouldn't have been quite so much disagreement.
Basic stuff, I reckon.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:13pm   #274
 
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Skill Leverage started this thread Charts stop being a sarcastic ****; you do not even understand the concept, I am acknowledging that there could have been better wording but in no way would it affect an intelligent person's understanding of the question; most people do not have to have it spoonfed to them like I have had to do with you.

'The plane might have been getting towed'... Most people would assume that, unless written, the plane is, in fact, not being towed. Ever. I'd hate to have to try and mark your physics exams at school, they were doubtless just a string of irrelevant questions that only confused you more about how wrong you are.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:14pm   #275
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Just to show that Bramble/ezreddy or whoever that may be actually does understand the problem, I would like to rephrase the initial problem. Overall, this has actually been a fun exercise for the brain and a nice respite from work. Here is the same question phrased in a different manner:

Imagine an airplane sitting on a very large conveyor belt. The belt has the same dimensions as a runway at an airport. Assume no wind and that the required ground speed for this airplane to take off is 180 km/hr. The conveyor can reach a speed of 300 km/hr from a dead standstill in 4 seconds and is set to run in the opposite direction of the aircraft takeoff. For this exercise, the friction within the wheels of the aircraft is negligible at a speed up to 700 km/hr. The coefficient of friction for the conveyor belt is the same as that of a typical runway (both starting and sliding friction). The aircraft has no maintenance issues and will typically achieve its required speed of 180 km/hr using three quarters of the runway. If the aircraft were to attempt a takeoff and the conveyor were started up one second after (edit in) the airplane began forward motion(completed edit) this attempt, what would happen?

This aircraft will take off using the normal amount of runway (unless the pilot has been drinking).
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:15pm   #276
 
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"this is the point that you, and everyone else who got it wrong can't understand - a plane's forward motion has nothing to do with how fast its wheels are spinning."

I didn't say that Skill. While the plane is on the ground its forward motion (or "distance of travel" if you like) is measured by the turn of the wheel. Say the wheel's circumference is 20 feet then the plane will have move forward by 20 feet after one revolution - if the ground underneath the wheel has moved backwards by 20 feet then the plane won't have moved will it?

jon
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:16pm   #277
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Originally Posted by Skill Leverage View Post
This is what you cannot understand:

it takes no more effort to move the plane when the belt is spinning at a million miles an hour than is required when the belt is stationary.
Skills, I'm going to have to leave you shortly as I believe I can see the back of my own head in my rear-view space-time curved mirror, but before I do....

You're on about effort (again). Firget effort. Forget what's possible or likely. You posed a theoretical question.

Skills, for both out sakes just answer this one, simple question. Does any movement transmitted to the wheels of the plane, regardless of HOW that force is transmiitted, cause the wheels to move relative to a fixed reference point off the moving conveyor belt?
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:16pm   #278
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
"this is the point that you, and everyone else who got it wrong can't understand - a plane's forward motion has nothing to do with how fast its wheels are spinning."

I didn't say that Skill. While the plane is on the ground its forward motion (or "distance of travel" if you like) is measured by the turn of the wheel. Say the wheel's circumference is 20 feet then the plane will have move forward by 20 feet after one revolution - if the ground underneath the wheel has moved backwards by 20 feet then the plane won't have moved will it?

jon
I say again; the plane's forward motion has nothing to do with how many revolutions the wheels have done, are doing, or will do.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:17pm   #279
 
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Originally Posted by TheBramble View Post
Skills, I'm going to have to leave you shortly as I believe I can see the back of my own head in my rear-view space-time curved mirror, but before I do....

You're on about effort (again). Firget effort. Forget what's possible or likely. You posed a theoretical question.

Skills, for both out sakes just answer this one, simple question. Does any movement transmitted to the wheels of the plane, regardless of HOW that force is transmiitted, cause the wheels to move relative to a fixed reference point off the moving conveyor belt?
No. the engine causes the wheels to move relative to a fixed point off the conveyor belt. The belt does nothing but spin the wheels on their axes.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:20pm   #280
 
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"Charts stop being a sarcastic ****"
I love it. If that is so, thank you for the inspiration and example LOL
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:22pm   #281
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Originally Posted by barjon View Post
I didn't say that Skill. While the plane is on the ground its forward motion (or "distance of travel" if you like) is measured by the turn of the wheel. Say the wheel's circumference is 20 feet then the plane will have move forward by 20 feet after one revolution - if the ground underneath the wheel has moved backwards by 20 feet then the plane won't have moved will it?
Genius Jon, pure genius.

YES!!! EXACTLY.

I'm going now to look at some trading related threads and I'm not coming back here. No really. As there can be no more concise, correct, articulate, erudite or intelligent answer than that given by HRH Barjon.
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:23pm   #282
 
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Skill Leverage started this thread Dear oh dear. It seems you guys will just plain never get it. How many times do you have to be told the wheels have NOTHING to do with it, before you will stop going "But what if the wheels are spinning this fast, or this fast, or have done this many revolutions...."... Christ almighty...
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:25pm   #283
 
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"As there can be no more concise, correct, articulate, erudite or intelligent answer than that given by HRH Barjon."

OK enough brownie points earned
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:27pm   #284
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Charts View Post
"As there can be no more concise, articulate, erudite or incorrect answer than that given by HRH Barjon."

OK enough brownie points earned
FYP
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Old Feb 23, 2009, 3:27pm   #285
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"this is the point that you, and everyone else who got it wrong can't understand - a plane's forward motion has nothing to do with how fast its wheels are spinning."

I didn't say that Skill. While the plane is on the ground its forward motion (or "distance of travel" if you like) is measured by the turn of the wheel. Say the wheel's circumference is 20 feet then the plane will have move forward by 20 feet after one revolution - if the ground underneath the wheel has moved backwards by 20 feet then the plane won't have moved will it?

jon
The planes engines, however, are operating in another - fixed - reference frame, and the plane can move with regard to a fixed reference frame becasue it is attached to the engines which generate a force to move themselves with regard to a fixed reference frame.

You could, for example, pick the whole conveyor belt and run with it at 180mph - the plane would take off.
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