ZuluTrade

[tar]

Kama does not need to sustain his model.
He's had 20m in following for a month now. At 1% per trade, 200 pips SL, that's $500 per trade in commissions. 50 trades a month that makes it $25,000 which is twice the annual income in Russia.
Add to that his other account Saved FX that we know of, and possibly previous and/or future accounts that we do not know of, and there's no reason for him to care about probabilities catching up really.

Providers like forexazul, x trading, pipnow25, and the_best_player racked up millions in following after 5/6 weeks using the same template as Kama so it is obvious that followers' devotion to the rankings system and herd mentality combine such a degree that these guys no longer need to think about the medium to long-term implications of their strategies.

But read the first page of this thread and you'll see that it's always been like this since the beginning.
It's all supply and demand, Zulutrade is not more to blame or condemn than the Bellagio. Most people cannot understand the probability of hitting red at roulette so you can't expect them to understand trading risk management.

Those who complain for losing money are the same who would sue McDonald's for being fat.

Your calculation is not accurate , as a trader you should look for consistency , sure you can make 50K in a couple of months then set down 10 years , then what ?! what's the average /monthly income now ? Yes Zulu is not really blamed for the losses , but it is criticised for the business model it is running same goes for the reckless SPs they are not blamed but rather criticised .

 

[The Artist]

Your calculation is not accurate , as a trader you should look for consistency , sure you can make 50K in a couple of months then set down 10 years , then what ?! what's the average /monthly income now ? Yes Zulu is not really blamed for the losses , but it is criticised for the business model it is running same goes for the reckless SPs they are not blamed but rather criticised .

What do you mean my calculation is not accurate?

 

[robbert]

You put it quite well my friend.

just want add some remark - the commission calculation you put is pretty nice but keep in mind it is based on the followers and the number can change overnight if he is not sustaining its strategy.

remember FCC and the frop from 30M went down to 7M was it in less that a week.

 

[tar]

What do you mean my calculation is not accurate?

The 25K/month figure is meaningless , cuz it's just a temp job "no consistency" so it is not really 25K/month , it could be 50-75K or more or less for all his trading career , it depends on how much he will survive .

 

[The Artist]

I see.
I didn't make myself clear.
I didn't mean $25k/month as a regular income I meant as a one off in March since he's had about 20m in following for the entire month.
Plus Saved FX that's about $40k in March.

So my point was that it's more than enough to justify a short-term approach based on reckless trading rather than face the difficulty, time, and costs of becoming a consistently profitable fx trader and make the same amount in the markets.
Especially as I assume the majority of providers on Zulutrade are part-time traders at best and for all we know the person running Kama-Spot is a 17yo kid in high school.

 

[robbert]

I see.
I didn't make myself clear.
I didn't mean $25k/month as a regular income I meant as a one off in March since he's had about 20m in following for the entire month.
Plus Saved FX that's about $40k in March.

So my point was that it's more than enough to justify a short-term approach based on reckless trading rather than face the difficulty, time, and costs of becoming a consistently profitable fx trader and make the same amount in the markets.
Especially as I assume the majority of providers on Zulutrade are part-time traders at best and for all we know the person running Kama-Spot is a 17yo kid in high school.

yeah in a way true....but hey isn't Forex markets too much volatile to have a sustainable long-term profitability?

 

[Brumby]

I see.
I didn't make myself clear.
I didn't mean $25k/month as a regular income I meant as a one off in March since he's had about 20m in following for the entire month.
Plus Saved FX that's about $40k in March.

So my point was that it's more than enough to justify a short-term approach based on reckless trading rather than face the difficulty, time, and costs of becoming a consistently profitable fx trader and make the same amount in the markets.
Especially as I assume the majority of providers on Zulutrade are part-time traders at best and for all we know the person running Kama-Spot is a 17yo kid in high school.

I think credit should be accorded when it is due. Kama has been able to reach the number one spot and gathered substantial following in the process - that is a fact. If it is reckless trading the guy must be extemely lucky. You may disagree with his trading approach and risk management but his equity curve has been on a steady trajectory. He is still ahead until proven otherwise. Typically an account don't survive reckless trading for 6 months.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Yep thats all true,hes done very well and you cant blame him for his success,its just the ways hes set up

 

[tar]

I think credit should be accorded when it is due. Kama has been able to reach the number one spot and gathered substantial following in the process - that is a fact. If it is reckless trading the guy must be extemely lucky. You may disagree with his trading approach and risk management but his equity curve has been on a steady trajectory. He is still ahead until proven otherwise. Typically an account don't survive reckless trading for 6 months.

Zulu's ranking system is not an accurate measure here , he doesn't know how to trade that's for sure , just take a look at FCC for example he was much much better but ... !

http://www.zulutrade.com/trader/27609

 

[The Artist]

I think credit should be accorded when it is due. Kama has been able to reach the number one spot and gathered substantial following in the process - that is a fact. If it is reckless trading the guy must be extemely lucky. You may disagree with his trading approach and risk management but his equity curve has been on a steady trajectory. He is still ahead until proven otherwise. Typically an account don't survive reckless trading for 6 months.

I see where you're coming from. And to be honest I don't know if he's a good trader or not, nobody can know that.
The reason is that his "equity curve" is an aggregated pips calculator, not an actual equity curve.

Typically an account doesn't survive reckless trading for 6 months, I tend to agree.
But Zulutrade does not show you accounts now does it?

Let's try to transpose Kama's strategy into real world trading for a second.
Let's assume equal size for all trades as it is now.
Let's assume his max DD of 730 pips is a 10% DD on a real account.
That means his total 5000 pips so far equal a non-annualised 70% return. That's actually quite decent to be fair, but hardly surreal though. Tar was mentioning Collective2 the other day and there you will find providers with several hundreds of % of return over the same period just to give a reference.

I've been careful enough never to openly criticize any providers on Zulutrade. I've said before they have no obligation of results so they can do what they want.
But I will certainly disagree with anyone who infers trading ability from pip aggregation ability. When I mention reckless trading I'm more talking about how the severely adverse risk/reward ratio of some of these guys affects the margin of their followers.

 

[brettus]

I see where you're coming from. And to be honest I don't know if he's a good trader or not, nobody can know that.
The reason is that his "equity curve" is an aggregated pips calculator, not an actual equity curve.

Typically an account doesn't survive reckless trading for 6 months, I tend to agree.
But Zulutrade does not show you accounts now does it?

Let's try to transpose Kama's strategy into real world trading for a second.
Let's assume equal size for all trades as it is now.
Let's assume his max DD of 730 pips is a 10% DD on a real account.
That means his total 5000 pips so far equal a non-annualised 70% return. That's actually quite decent to be fair, but hardly surreal though. Tar was mentioning Collective2 the other day and there you will find providers with several hundreds of % of return over the same period just to give a reference.

I've been careful enough never to openly criticize any providers on Zulutrade. I've said before they have no obligation of results so they can do what they want.
But I will certainly disagree with anyone who infers trading ability from pip aggregation ability. When I mention reckless trading I'm more talking about how the severely adverse risk/reward ratio of some of these guys affects the margin of their followers.

I agree that It might not be complete luck that Kama made it to the top spot. I think If i knew probability better then I would have have an idea of the chances of it being complete luck. If there's a 1% chance of someone creating his stats then he just lucky, because out of 100 SP's trading the same idea's roughly, one should make it right? This inclines me to say it is just pure luck, but I'm still not sure. Even if he is lucky, it will take him a long time to blow up as he has 5k pips to play with.

 

[DT]

AGAIN, IF PEOPLE ARE NOT WINNING THEY WILL NOT STAY WITH ZULUTRADE. SIMPLY WILL MOVE THEIR CAPITAL SOMEWHERE ELSE....like this casino pages or betting on dogs, horses and dunno what else. simple as that!

Casinos, dog tracks, horse races are full of people who repeatedly lose and keep coming back... most of the money in that industry is earned from people who repeatedly lose over time and keep coming back for more.

If someone is dumb enough to risk their money blindly following some random punter on the internet who's more than likely just experienced some positive variance then more fool them. I don't see them as being any different to the degenerates who **** away their disposable income at a casino.

 

[brettus]

Casinos, dog tracks, horse races are full of people who repeatedly lose and keep coming back... most of the money in that industry is earned from people who repeatedly lose over time and keep coming back for more.

If someone is dumb enough to risk their money blindly following some random punter on the internet who's more than likely just experienced some positive variance then more fool them. I don't see them as being any different to the degenerates who **** away their disposable income at a casino.

Woah woah. Depends on what you're looking to get out of it. These things can be a lot of fun. I just don't agree with people who think they can make something out of it. Those people getting annoyed with Kama for going offside for example.

 

[jungles]

most of the conversation hinges on zulu providers who are akin to gamblers (high risk) as opposed to "traders"

have you come across any providers who you believe behave more like traders?
ie., prudent risk management, yet also generate decent returns

 

[brettus]

most of the conversation hinges on zulu providers who are akin to gamblers (high risk) as opposed to "traders"

have you come across any providers who you believe behave more like traders?
ie., prudent risk management, yet also generate decent returns

Yea I'm sure there is lots. Just hard to see with Zulutrades messed up ranking. Not impossible to find though.

I think that anyone with less than 60% win ratio is more likely to be legit. With that ratio you're more likely to be taking smaller losses than your winners. Low max DD %. Not that it works on zulutrade. Has to be a decent amount of pips per trade otherwise you'll get killed in the extra spread and comms. Azar consulting doesn't look too bad, but he hasn't done enough trades for me.

 

[jungles]

ye, i've been watching Azar, he does behave more like a trader

there might be a few others

Azar consulting doesn't look too bad, but he hasn't done enough trades for me.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

ye, i've been watching Azar, he does behave more like a trader

there might be a few others

i think it can only really be show in time, azar appears to be the only one as far as Im concerned. ive watched a few more alongh with him this month,but most are slipping away

 

[brettus]

ye, i've been watching Azar, he does behave more like a trader

there might be a few others

Fractal pro Low DD. Only 2 weeks though. One to watch maybe. I see hes closing losses. Need a lot more trades but only 2 maximum open trades so far.

Found another like Azar. Seems decent. EUReka V. Not enough trades but looks good so far.

Not sure really, because of the number of trades. It's easy to produce this performance.

Hake Hake is right up there with them to be honest. Just needs more trades as 182 trades when duping isn't actually a lot. It's like 40 trades. Only 6 weeks in as well. Worth watching it or following on demo.

 

[jungles]

thanks brettus
------------------------

has any developed a selection criteria template for sifting through providers?

i should build one, would help to hone in on potential "traders" as opposed to gamblers

1] min. no# weeks providing
2] max. no# trades open at any one time
3] holding positions over weekend yes/no
4] DD
5] "averaging" tendencies
6] opens multiple positions at the same time
7] etc etc

note: the list isnt meant to be right or wrong, but rather a means of building a profile

 

[Brumby]

The reason is that his "equity curve" is an aggregated pips calculator, not an actual equity curve.

Point taken and is a fair comment. It is a reasonable approximation given different account and position sizing. It facilitates comparison within Zulu and context of discussion.

Typically an account doesn't survive reckless trading for 6 months, I tend to agree.
But Zulutrade does not show you accounts now does it?

Each follower and their accounts invariably has a different risk profile. If they take on board too much risk, then it is their fault and not because of Kama provided Kama himself doesn't exceed the risk tolerance that he has outlined publicly.

Let's try to transpose Kama's strategy into real world trading for a second.
Let's assume equal size for all trades as it is now.
Let's assume his max DD of 730 pips is a 10% DD on a real account.
That means his total 5000 pips so far equal a non-annualised 70% return. That's actually quite decent to be fair, but hardly surreal though. Tar was mentioning Collective2 the other day and there you will find providers with several hundreds of % of return over the same period just to give a reference.

I don't think it is the original thrust of the discussion whether there are better traders out there that are better than Kama. I think the focus was the inherent problems associated with Kama especially the rather problematic risk managment approach. The main issue is whether he is reckless. A constant comparison against FFC is probably not fair because there might be similarities in form but we do not know the substance of his risk management and cannot conclusively know whether it is recklessness or there is a plan to the madness.

I've been careful enough never to openly criticize any providers on Zulutrade. I've said before they have no obligation of results so they can do what they want.
But I will certainly disagree with anyone who infers trading ability from pip aggregation ability. When I mention reckless trading I'm more talking about how the severely adverse risk/reward ratio of some of these guys affects the margin of their followers.

I respect your opinion that pips aggregation is not necessarily the final arbiter of trading ability but within the Zulu rules, Kama knows how to leverage his way to the top.
I agree his RR is problematic in the long run but morally he can't be responsible for the recklessness of others provided he operates within the risk parameters disclosure. Trading FX is high risk and typically the majority blows their own account whether Kama eventually assists in that effort or not.