Zen Futures

[manfan]

Hi All,

I had an interview with Zen Futures in February, I was due to have another one but the company subsequently went into liquidation. I would like to find out what their graduate trainee is doing now. Does any one have any information on any relevant contacts?

Many thanks.

 

[Directional]

I hear some went to the Clearing Alliance over at Fortis, others to Sigma, Altantic Trading and Elite Derivatives - and to other shops. No shortage of arcades to take on experienced grads with a track record.

Word is Elite have a very good deal going, a new office and lots of new intake.

 

[manfan]

I hear some went to the Clearing Alliance over at Fortis, others to Sigma, Altantic Trading and Elite Derivatives - and to other shops. No shortage of arcades to take on experienced grads with a track record.

Word is Elite have a very good deal going, a new office and lots of new intake.

Thank you for the prompt response Arbitrageur. I have actually been trying to get into futures/quant trading for nearly a year now. I have a 2.2. MPhys Astrophysics, a pass in an MSc Computational Finance and a year's work experience for BT. I have had about 5/6 interviews and Zen were the only one showing any promise.

I have been told by a recruiter that the industry is ridiculously competitive. Even with an MSc, entry into quant trading is very unlikely. A for futures trading, I recently spoke with an experienced trader and am being told that compaines are reducing their graduate intake as 90% of graduates do not make much money. This is also apparent from sites such as eFinancialCareers; fewer and fewer adverts for graduate trainee schemes are being offered.

Do you or anyone else have any views on the matter? What is the best way to enter either futures or quant trading?

Thanks again.

 

[quickg]

I have been told by a recruiter that the industry is ridiculously competitive. Even with an MSc, entry into quant trading is very unlikely. A for futures trading, I recently spoke with an experienced trader and am being told that compaines are reducing their graduate intake as 90% of graduates do not make much money. This is also apparent from sites such as eFinancialCareers; fewer and fewer adverts for graduate trainee schemes are being offered.

Thanks again.

Did he tell you what the companines want? Track records?

 

[manfan]

Did he tell you what the companines want? Track records?

I asked what other sources comapnies would consider for recruitment instead of graduates. He said he wasn't sure what was going to happen. As is apparent from jobs sites; adverts for experienced traders are rife. This is also what he said; traders with a proven track record are likely to be recruited but this means the issue of recruitment numbers will be a problem if graduates are no longer considered. He didn't give further details of what the companies are looking for in experienced traders.

I am by no means saying this is what is happening and that is final. I'm just going on the views of one trader and from what I have seen on the jobs sites. However there may not have been many trainee programs for graduates on offer in the last few months due to a quiet summer period. Perhaps this will pick up in the Autumn term as new graduates search for jobs.

What are other peoples views?

 

[scotty_dog]

I asked what other sources comapnies would consider for recruitment instead of graduates. He said he wasn't sure what was going to happen. As is apparent from jobs sites; adverts for experienced traders are rife. This is also what he said; traders with a proven track record are likely to be recruited but this means the issue of recruitment numbers will be a problem if graduates are no longer considered. He didn't give further details of what the companies are looking for in experienced traders.

I am by no means saying this is what is happening and that is final. I'm just going on the views of one trader and from what I have seen on the jobs sites. However there may not have been many trainee programs for graduates on offer in the last few months due to a quiet summer period. Perhaps this will pick up in the Autumn term as new graduates search for jobs.

What are other peoples views?

You could always get £5-10k together and back yourself.

Checklist:

A Methodology - try Mark Fisher's book The Logical Trader
A Broker - IB
Charting Package - Sierra Charts
Execution Software - ZeroLineTrader
A Market - EuroStoxx futures
A Plan - Write it yourself with help from http://www.trade2win.com/knowledge/articles/general_articles/trading-plan-template/?r
A Risk control - try sim trading for a while before trading 1 contract at a time

You are now on square one.
Good luck.

 

[jmreeve]

Have you tried getting interviews with any hedge funds?

You qualifications would be more useful for a job on the buy-side.
Also recommend setting up a trading account and getting some direct experience.

 

[manfan]

Thanks guys,

I actually tried FXCM online for quite a while, just the practise account. Does anyone know if the live account is worthwhile? I hear typical internet speeds are much too slow, unlike those used in trading firms which obviously make a huge difference to the trades.

Is it necessary to start with a 5k practise account? Could I not start to trade with much less? and scotty dog, could I trade from home in the scheme you suggest?

jmreeve, I have not looked into hedge funds at all. I find the nature of their work very interesting but have not come across many adverts. Could you suggest any suitable pathways?

Thanks again.

 

[Directional]

Persistence and networking. Apply for every quant/bank/hedgie job going. Go the financial expo's such as FOW DSW, talk to everyone. Make friends, hand your card out. Blag your way into the after-parties. You may find that the people you meet and have a drink with at these industry expo's are a better line in to job opportunities than blindly applying on efinancialcareers.

Its been said plenty times before by others tho, that prop trading and quantative analysis are two very different jobs.

 

[manfan]

Thanks Arbitrageur. I do understand that they are two very different jobs. I have applied for a number of quant jobs throughout the year, only to get one interview. I have spoken to people about the industry, including a recruiter who informs me that competition is intense with sometimes hundreds applying for one place. Even then masters graduates are sidelined for PhDs. In addition I have been told that an 'old boys' network prevails even in the quant industry which would make the networking events you describe a better option than applying.

Could you tell me more about these events and did you yourself make any significant career moves this way?

Thanks again.

 

[scotty_dog]

Is it necessary to start with a 5k practise account? Could I not start to trade with much less? and scotty dog, could I trade from home in the scheme you suggest?

1. You want each trade to be nearly insignificant. You're after singles not 6s. <2% of capital per trade is often mentioned. That means (entry price - stop loss) * tick value is less than 2%. £5000 leads to a 2% trade of £100. Not much.

2. Starting with much less and you're likely to lose it all before you figure it out. Bear in mind I said £5-10k, not £5k. And/or you wont be able to afford the trade opportunity.

3. You can certainly trade from home with the set-up I described. The job title Trader sounds flashy but it doesn't take much to open a brokerage account. Being a good trader, that's something else.

Hope this helps.

 

[Directional]

Thanks Arbitrageur. I do understand that they are two very different jobs. I have applied for a number of quant jobs throughout the year, only to get one interview. I have spoken to people about the industry, including a recruiter who informs me that competition is intense with sometimes hundreds applying for one place. Even then masters graduates are sidelined for PhDs. In addition I have been told that an 'old boys' network prevails even in the quant industry which would make the networking events you describe a better option than applying.

Could you tell me more about these events and did you yourself make any significant career moves this way?

Thanks again.

The competition for grad positions at trading firms is equally intense.

Actually, some of the best contacts I've made have been through this very site. T2W members were certainly instrumental in getting me into the industry.

A site I came across the other day, not sure if they are affiliated with efinancial careers or cityjobs, but maybe worth a look http://www.quantfinancejobs.com/

 

[manfan]

I have been using quantfinancejobs.com for the past year. There are very few junior quant jobs going and even those are oriented towards PhDs. Please let me know if you know of any new trading firm openings or networking events. I have actually emailed most trading companies in the directory with little success.

Thanks again guys.

 

[tommog]

the industry is very competitive and this is understandable considering the potential rewards, but a lot of the firms i feel go about their recruitment process in the wrong way. For a futures trading position within a prop firm you are probably MORE qualified in academic terms than 90% of the guys there. I trade for a firm and i meet people from all types of background but if anything its the people that never went to uni that seem more adept to trading. I have my opinions why this is but thats probably for another thread. But the things people that make money have in common is discipline, controlled aggression and strength of character, it isnt easy starting at a prop firm, you wont earn a penny for at least 6 months and thats if you are in the top 10% of people, just because an applicant went to a top uni and is a maths professor does that mean that after a week of losing money you still have the courage to click that mouse on Friday and make it back. My point is, if you are applying to prop houses chances are the people in charge see hundreds of highly intellectual people applying every month and know this doesn’t guarantee future success. Of course you should proud of your academic achievements but in order to stand out i recommend emphasising other qualities like i mentioned above that will let the firms know that you are a trader.

 

[manfan]

Thanks you tommog, great advice there. I understand that it is not entirely an acadmically-oriented career. One of the most important qualities I hear of time and time again is resilience. As one interviwer asked me; 'What would you do after walking out of the door after a week of extreme losses?'. I do have cover letters which emphasise my current knowledge of the industry; I am aware that I am unlikely to make any mone for a very long time. Even though one may work extremly hard, there is no guarantee of success. I think I am in many ways suited to the type of work which is what appeals to me the most; I am very dedicated, focussed, analytical and unemotional. It is very hard for me to become excited and get drawn into a situation that is out of my hands without realising. Then again I hear stories of 'wideboys' who have the guts to go all in and many I hear, end up being very successful. What are your thoughts? What is it about the mindset of someone without a degree that makes them successful as you mention? (I'm not saying this is true in all cases).

You mention I should point out qualities demonstrating my ability to 'bounce back'. I will definately take this on board as I have a few examples, but they are academically related which I hope won't play against me.

Thanks again.

 

[Directional]

good post Tommog. I think this highlights how different the two roles are.

A Quant is absolutely required to be a mathematical genius to even stand a chance of doing what the firm requires the analyst to do. Extracting and building a mathematical or statistically significant model to give an edge in the markets that can be used by the banks or trading house to make money from the markets or hedge their risks. Thats a "scientific" challenge that should not be underestimated.

As you rightly surmise, a grad scheme at an arcade is led by the graduate requirement probably only because the job is so desirable to the masses and as such they can pretty much dictate whatever they like for their applicants. To be fair to the arcades, what makes a one guy a good trader and another one suck is very hard or impossible to determine from an interview - they may as well take only the cream of the graduate crop and at least be certain they are recruiting smart prospective traders who have demostrated stickability with their education.

Many of the great traders I've met in the industry are not grad level educated. You dont need an extensive education to learn and grasp the various methods taught in the arcades - but you do need "discipline, controlled aggression and strength of character". and the ability to remain sufficiently detached from the fact that you may have just done your a-rse in the market for a week but are disciplined enough to take the next trade indicated by your proven trading method.

 

[tommog]

manfan,

glad my post was of some use to you,

Then again I hear stories of 'wideboys' who have the guts to go all in and many I hear, end up being very successful. What are your thoughts? What is it about the mindset of someone without a degree that makes them successful as you mention? (I'm not saying this is true in all cases).

This is just my personal opinion from what i have seen but a lot of people that do well in terms of academic achievments particularly in the maths/science field (which a lot of trading jobs target their recruitment process at??) tend to have minds that look for a definitive answer, yes or no black or white and when they sit down at the screen they immediately try to create a formula that will "crack" the markets. From what i have seen these people as knowledgeable as they may be find it very hard to pull the trigger in the end, their mind is almost overloaded by all the variables the market throws up. Where as some of those wideboy characters you mention tend to have the sort of attitude where they feel they have nothing to lose, they dont stop and analyse every little movement. They see an opportunity and do it, trading is about probabilities the best traders in my experience are the ones that see the odds slightly in their favour and just do the trade, it is possible in trading to think too much and almost be too clever.

Tom

 

[jmreeve]

There is a difference between quantitative trader and pure quant analyst.

Quant analysts tend to work in banks creating pricing models for all sorts of strange derivatives and
they don't trade. You don't stand any real chance of getting a job like this without a PhD.

It sounds like you would be more interested in being a quantitative trader.
If this is the case then get good at designing trading systems and then go and talk to some hedge funds.

 

[Directional]

http://www.smartquant.com/

 

[amwaytrader]

www.smartcunt.com