why SpreadBet??? its not professional

[Stockjunkie]

difficult to daytrade ?

some are as low as 2 for the Dax and 4 for the Dow , that's not far off the market , how low must it be before one starts winning ?

Like has been said , if you can't win on SBs , what makes you think you can win on DA ?

the stakes are bigger and each hit is going to be bigger in absolute terms , that is a real psychological blow , believe me .

1 thing to take 3 $300 losses ina row , quite another to take 3 $2,000 in a row . Your confidence takes a real hammering .

If you don't get off to a flying start on DAs , thenchances are you're doomed.

 

[Stockjunkie]

I'm sorry, but this statement is SO far off the mark. Try shorting some of the lesser liquid stocks without the risk of getting bought in by a broker and all of a sudden SBs provide a tool NO-ONE else can. And how about someone like Blades who has reached his CGT threshold? And professional traders who use SBs on the side to earn of bit of PA cash?

SBs might not be for everyone, but to assert that professional traders don't use them is, quite frankly, laughable.

I agree , winning is never easy whatever the platform , but for the few with an " edge " , it is possible .

I have made 6X my capital with SBs and I can prove it in public .

 

[the blades]

Hello Charlie, is it not cruelly ironic that the people who are least properly equipped are the first ones to blunder forth, like the lemmings ?

The concept of an edge is not understood on these boards. It is believed to be the consequence of mastering some mechanical truth hidden in the charts, or other nonsenses.

I am not going to progress any further in that direction.

I will only venture to say again I wholly agree with you.

What appears not to be universally understood here is that in order to afford the luxury of sacrificing part of an edge as a component of a superior strategy in order to achieve some objective that may offer a benefit, the remaining edge must be substantial, so that the sacrifice does not significantly affect the advantage and the capability overall.

In consequence of this disadvantage, that is, by virtue of not posessing a real edge, the great majority seek comfort. This comfort is not to be had in the direction in which the universal bias of interest is tilted. The great irony is that the true holders of really substantial edges do not bother to SB.

Soc,

My gut reaction is to ask you to answer my question, raised in post 55, and simply stick to the points raised.

As I realise these are specific questions that can be measured, used and debated without the need for an inexplicable "higher purpose", I'm not hopeful.

Suprise me?

UTB

 

[SOCRATES]

If one thing is clear from this thread it is that both CharlieChan and Socrates have never Spread Bet yet are free to give us all the advice we need to know on the subject.
Still what do I know? I am just a Rookie are these guys are Legendary! (in their own minds perhaps).
Any way I'm bored of this thread now - need to go and make some nice tax free cash.

Cheers

pringle

Yes, this is because in contrast to a lot of upstarts who boast about what they do and do not do, Charlie and I do not discuss these things as they are none of your concern.

But our views (not idle opinions) are the consequence of long experience and expertise, whereas you are a rookie, and learning, and you ought not to be disrespectful of constructive comment based on hard earned knowledge over a long period of time, regardless of who expresses these views.

But there are many individuals who know very little but think they know better and that they know it all.

Bear in mind that when you see an iceberg floating about, that is not all there is.

 

[SOCRATES]

Soc,

My gut reaction is to ask you to answer my question, raised in post 55, and simply stick to the points raised.

As I realise these are specific questions that can be measured, used and debated without the need for an inexplicable "higher purpose", I'm not hopeful.

Suprise me?

UTB

No, you have been pointedly rude and disrespectful to me in the past and I will not waste any effort or time in helping you, sorry.

 

[SOCRATES]

Would those that trade via Direct Access Brokers kindly state what the spread is on Euro/Dollar and the FTSE 100. Are there any other transaction costs ie. commission involved or is that it?

CMC charge their spread betting clients 3 pips for the Euro/Dollar and 2 points on the FTSE 100 index no other fees or commission are added to these spreads.

A simple comparison of charges relative to potential rewards should settle the argument/debate once and for all.

Hello Sir, he argument is much deeper than is prudent or indeed wise, to ventilate in a public forum such as this.

For this reason, I am restricting my commentary within very basic limits, and no further.

I am certain this sentiment is echoed elsewhere.

Kind Regards.

 

[Stockjunkie]

This business has nothing to do with rookies or oldies or boasting or whatever.

It boils to simple facts : Are you a winner , and if so ? what's the R:R ratio that's all.

Nothing to do with boasting . more to do with backing one's claims .

If I say I have made 10X my capital , when I show nothing to back it up .

that makes me a BS artist . surely no one would support that ?

 

[LION63]

Good afternoon to you Socrates,

I agree with what you say but believe that debates should head towards settlement based on the presentation of facts. As such, it would be quite revealing if numbers were used to enhance the discussion by either side.

Over the last few months these boards seem to be headed downhill and the topics tend to be repetitive and/or irrelevant, the topics that are of any interest never deal with the issue and end up being a waste of time. Unless this is rectified, we are in danger of turning this into a board for time wasting.

 

[wasp]

Its been a while... good to see the names have changed but the same arguments remain! Good to see 'Socrates' still here and still friends with 'the blades!' Hope your both well!

I have tried both and I have worked for brokers and banks in Hong Kong many years ago. Things have changed since then mind.

For the argument of whether it is professional or not is down to how you percieve your business. At the end of the day you have to weigh up the pros and cons and decide for yourself. We are all doing this in order to make a living.

There are so many different reasons for either side but as a platform to enable you to earn a living I think they equal each other out. Each have got so many different faults and promises but I can't see how you can rule out SB'ing for a living. Many people here do, profitably and happily, myself included and life was no better using DA than SB.

There is, has, and always will be arguments about, tax, price skewing and spread size. About paying commisions and being ripped off.

Stop worrying about whether its professional or not!! If you have the skills to profit from the markets, use which ever you are most comfortable with as from my experience, it comes down to your own ability, not the broker.

Just my opinion.

Chris

 

[JonnyT]

The spread on the Dow Futures YM is 1.
The spread on the EUR/USD future is 0.0001

JonnyT

 

[Mr. Charts]

Actually, LION, I think the improved standard of moderating, whilst sometimes wildly over - zealous in my opinion, has led to a distinct improvement in quality; perhaps that is simply because of the banning of an especially rude and unpleasant poster and his alter-egos and of the departure of another confrontational individual. I hasten to add I am NOT referring to the banning of Salty.
I have been on BBs since the first financial BB, "ESI", back in the mid 90s and I assure you the behaviour on BBs by certain individuals was ever thus. I have seen it all before......many times.
So yes, some praise for the mods is appropriate.
Richard

 

[SOCRATES]

Good afternoon to you Socrates,

I agree with what you say but believe that debates should head towards settlement based on the presentation of facts. As such, it would be quite revealing if numbers were used to enhance the discussion by either side.

Over the last few months these boards seem to be headed downhill and the topics tend to be repetitive and/or irrelevant, the topics that are of any interest never deal with the issue and end up being a waste of time. Unless this is rectified, we are in danger of turning this into a board for time wasting.

Dear Lion,

I think we have gone some way to show what is patently obvious.

I do not see a requirement to pursue what is patently obvious to try to make it more obvious than it already is.

When something is patently obvious, it is because it is.

Some few are able to recognise it immediately for what it is.

Others persist in trying to put angles on it that are irrelevant.

A few weeks ago, a SB company changed hands for more than £700 million.

The vendor, reputed to have become at that time the richest man in the City of London,
commented to the press that he started his enterprise for less than the cost of the wristwatch on his wrist.

Can it get more obvious than that, I ask you ?

"The problem is, the great majority overlook the significance of the obvious"
(a quotation attributed to the late Agatha Christie, which is particularly apt)

Kind Regards..

 

[the blades]

No, you have been pointedly rude and disrespectful to me in the past and I will not waste any effort or time in helping you, sorry.

I don't ask for your help. I will only ask that from those who I belive have the ability to give it.

It is a frequent discussion that others could learn from. I believe I know the answer, but being a nobody it matters not what I say. So surely any "expert" out there can answer it, by sticking to the facts with numbers, and not waffle. Others will surely benefit from this.

You accuse me of being rude - for each "rude" post of mine that you direct me to I will point you to 10 of yours where you indirectly swipe at others abilities (which brings about my "rudeness" as you put it).

Your ability to avoid any debate that contains facts, figures and objectibve evidence is now almost "legendary".

UTB

 

[JEDI]

Spreadbetting has its place it is a cheap way for someone to learn to play the game, I used them for 4 years but I would not use them now as I daytrade so I need not explain that any further, however there is another reason why I would not use them I noticed when I was losing money my trades would go thro straight away however when I started to consistently win it would take up to 3 minutes for the spreadbet co to confirm my trade and I would be requoted etc etc I now use a broker .

 

[SOCRATES]

Spreadbetting has its place it is a cheap way for someone to learn to play the game, I used them for 4 years but I would not use them now as I daytrade so I need not explain that any further, however there is another reason why I would not use them I noticed when I was losing money my trades would go thro straight away however when I started to consistently win it would take up to 3 minutes for the spreadbet co to confirm my trade and I would be requoted etc etc I now use a broker .

Exactly, and if you had gone long at the very absolute bottom and be requested additional margin without cause you would not like it. Nor would you like it when holding your position in the inevitable rise you recieved telephone calls to persuade you to close it. Nor would you like it, on picking the absolute top and on paper to be more than £30,000 in the money to be made to wait and wait, only to be closed out at a lesser figure, and all these carbunkles that beset traders who are consistently winners, until you get really bored and move on.

 

[SOCRATES]

I don't ask for your help. I will only ask that from those who I belive have the ability to give it.

It is a frequent discussion that others could learn from. I believe I know the answer, but being a nobody it matters not what I say. So surely any "expert" out there can answer it, by sticking to the facts with numbers, and not waffle. Others will surely benefit from this.

You accuse me of being rude - for each "rude" post of mine that you direct me to I will point you to 10 of yours where you indirectly swipe at others abilities (which brings about my "rudeness" as you put it).

Your ability to avoid any debate that contains facts, figures and objectibve evidence is now almost "legendary".

UTB

You can rant and rave, but I am not helping you, and that is final, so do not persist in answering back.

And a good day to you.

 

[LION63]

As I asked the question about spreads and comparitive costs etc., here is a simple example of the 'Professional' versus the 'Amateur' trader using the Euro/Dollar.

If we assume that the trader makes a profit of 50 points (arbitrary) a week and trades at £10 per point

- DA
50 x £10 x 48 weeks = £24,000 before tax and expenses (ie data feed, computer, electricity etc.). If we
allow for £4,000 of business expenses; net profit before taxes is £20,000. (Calculating the exact liability
is of little relevance).

- SPREADBETTING
50 - 2 (points for extra spread) x £10 x 48 weeks = £23,040. The trader still has the £4,000 business
expenses and therefore net profit is £19,040. Being that the tax due is nil, the figures speak for
themselves.

This is by no means an endorsement of spreadbetting, it is just to show that as far as the sums go, it is a no brainer.

 

[wasp]

This is by no means an endorsement of spreadbetting, it is just to show that as far as the sums go, it is a no brainer.

Indeed it is (a no brainer)... profits are the goal!

 

[SOCRATES]

As I asked the question about spreads and comparitive costs etc., here is a simple example of the 'Professional' versus the 'Amateur' trader using the Euro/Dollar.

If we assume that the trader makes a profit of 50 points (arbitrary) a week and trades at £10 per point

- DA
50 x £10 x 48 weeks = £24,000 before tax and expenses (ie data feed, computer, electricity etc.). If we
allow for £4,000 of business expenses; net profit before taxes is £20,000. (Calculating the exact liability
is of little relevance).

- SPREADBETTING
50 - 2 (points for extra spread) x £10 x 48 weeks = £23,040. The trader still has the £4,000 business
expenses and therefore net profit is £19,040. Being that the tax due is nil, the figures speak for
themselves.

This is by no means an endorsement of spreadbetting, it is just to show that as far as the sums go, it is a no brainer.

Dear Lion, these are sums. These sums are sums, but they do not sum up the sum of effort required to acheive these results. These sums do not take into account wilful slippage, unnecessary delays, and other nuisances. And after hours if it can get much worse, it will.

Kind Regards.

 

[LION63]

Dear Socrates,

Please note that I am not endorsing Spreadbetting or encouraging individuals to trade via the method. What I am saying is that there are worse options out there and it is not as bad as it seems. Most of the traders that encounter slippage are daytraders or are trying to execute trades during busy times, for these traders it would be better to have other accounts with DA to compliment their spread betting accounts.

The idea/task is to make money and the more options available to the trader, the better the chances of success.