why retail FX traders loose

[rsh01]

Nobody said anything about it being the MAIN reason

really? that's why you rinse & repeat the same 'zero sum game' BS statement in other threads.....

in a zero sum game someone has to win and someone has to loose. Let's take the mirky world of spot FX, about 10% of the volume is retail (from my limited research). The remainder is volume from larger players in various forms. Let's say 95% of the retail money is lost, this goes to the larger players.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/for...hy-retail-fx-traders-loose-5.html#post1945034

thanks anyway for taking a few pages & numerous posts on your own thread to actually admit that its not a zero sum game (which was the only bit I contested).

anyway, kudos for hitting the nail on the head here:

most retail traders do not understand the role of all the different participants in their chosen market

...& we dont have to look far for for a shining example.

here's a gem to finish with though....

and daily target hit for the day always good to finish at lunch time lol

jeez I feel sorry for the guy who you 'recruited' recently if this is the type of attitude he has to put up with.

 

[rsh01]

That being said you have ranked up over 1000 posts since you joined early this year. It's the making of a troll, multi nick perhaps even.

this sounds like vendor to me....

and daily target hit for the day always good to finish at lunch time lol

so thats arrogance, ignorance & aggressiveness all in one thread - the perfect vendor material imo.

 

[The Leopard]

this sounds like vendor to me....


so thats arrogance, ignorance & aggressiveness all in one thread - the perfect vendor material imo.

Let's hope so. Is this true Chocster D? Because if T2W desperately needs one thing, it's more vendors.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Sure thing, let's agree to disagree... If I may be cheeky, I should say that another reason why retail traders lose is their unwillingness to admit (first and foremost to themselves) when they're wrong .

Right, so, first and foremost, 10 yards is a lot, but not really egregious in the context of some of the larger end users (e.g. SAFE, CBs like the SNB or Norges Bank, as well as an occasional very large M&A deal). In such a context, it's very important to understand what you're trying to achieve.

For example, if I don't want my execution to move the market as I am trading, I might do what's known as a "drive-by" (very bad form). Otherwise, if I am a decent guy, I will slice the order up into smaller bits over time (either myself or ask a dealer to do this). There are many ways to do this, e.g. VWAP, TWAP, etc.

Occasionally, and this goes back to what I mentioned previously regarding M&A, a dealer who has to trade 10 yards actually doesn't care about the mkt impact. I think there was a relatively clear example some time in 2010 when Prudential was doing the rights issue to buy AIA. HSBC, which was one of the underwriters for the issue, went in and absolutely slaughtered cable. They simply didn't give a damn that they moved the mkt by a couple of big figures, 'cause the FX slippage was less than an afterthought, given the fees they were being paid (supposedly, the three lead underwriters shared $1bn in fees).

that's all good stuff. I would of course be interested in an explanation of 'drive by' however understand if you cannot/will not post this.

I wonder if you could help on one matter. I am basically trying to find out exactly what a trader can see from the EBS platform that a bucket shop trader cannot. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is that the top level spot FX market is transacted on the EBS platform, other high level platforms are out there but EBS has the bulk of volume?

so for you guys trading on EBS I guess you can see all of the liquidity available to you using your prime broker's credit. clearly a retail trader cannot see that. What about transactions, like time and sales? can you see volume being transacted. now that would be useful.

different traders say different things about how much large you need get access to EBS, some say $1m others say $200k. I hear the minimum trade size is 1m = 10 retail lots = 1 large lot.

any info any of you EBS/reuters users can share would be fascinating.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

really? that's why you rinse & repeat the same 'zero sum game' BS statement in other threads.....



http://www.trade2win.com/boards/for...hy-retail-fx-traders-loose-5.html#post1945034

thanks anyway for taking a few pages & numerous posts on your own thread to actually admit that its not a zero sum game (which was the only bit I contested).

anyway, kudos for hitting the nail on the head here:



...& we dont have to look far for for a shining example.

here's a gem to finish with though....


jeez I feel sorry for the guy who you 'recruited' recently if this is the type of attitude he has to put up with.

that's it let the anger out, take a deep breath and relax. it's all good, you will learn from this.

I never thought I would be called out for posting up a live trade, hitting my daily target and finishing early for the day.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Embarrassment. I never get embarrassed and certainly not by a mullet that calls himself chocatedigestive. I am surprised your not though as everyone seems to be picking at the flaws in your logic yet you still hang around. That being said you have ranked up over 1000 posts since you joined early this year. It's the making of a troll, multi nick perhaps even.

oh forker, I am gunna send you one of your stinger's mate, one of those

you cant handle a little baiting? how you gunna cope when the market beats you up.

just let go, it will do wonders for you blood pressure.

it's all good. as long as you are making money who cares.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Let's hope so. Is this true Chocster D? Because if T2W desperately needs one thing, it's more vendors.

it definitely needs more dude. it seems I have baited a good few people on this thread, that's what happens when you have time on your hands after you have banked your profits. oh well.

can you now go back to baiting Toasty as I was quite enjoying that exchange before barjon rudely closed the thread, you had only just got him warmed up.

anyway I always look for the positives, I haven't had a death threat via pm for over a month now.

 

[rsh01]

I never thought I would be called out for posting up a live trade, hitting my daily target and finishing early for the day.

1. please point out where i called you out for posting a live trade?

2. please also highlight where in any of my posts there is even a hint of anger.

seriously, i am just bemused by your attitude.

 

[forker]

that's all good stuff. I would of course be interested in an explanation of 'drive by' however understand if you cannot/will not post this.

I wonder if you could help on one matter. I am basically trying to find out exactly what a trader can see from the EBS platform that a bucket shop trader cannot. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is that the top level spot FX market is transacted on the EBS platform, other high level platforms are out there but EBS has the bulk of volume?

so for you guys trading on EBS I guess you can see all of the liquidity available to you using your prime broker's credit. clearly a retail trader cannot see that. What about transactions, like time and sales? can you see volume being transacted. now that would be useful.

different traders say different things about how much large you need get access to EBS, some say $1m others say $200k. I hear the minimum trade size is 1m = 10 retail lots = 1 large lot.

any info any of you EBS/reuters users can share would be fascinating.

On an institutional platform such as routers you don't see market depth as you would on a retail platform. For starters, and I am referring to currencies, you can pull up banks individually and see their quotes. This is of little benefit to the retail user of course. In terms of volume traded, that's irrelevant. All the institutions want to see is who is quoting what and how much is available. For Reuters to show volume they would need to subscribe to the data from each institution. They probably do show volume through their dealing system but again that's irrelevant

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

1. please point out where i called you out for posting a live trade?

2. please also highlight where in any of my posts there is even a hint of anger.

seriously, i am just bemused by your attitude.

my dear fellow you are the subject of something called baiting. at this stage of the game there are no winners only losers. best leave it there.

 

[The Leopard]

it definitely needs more dude. it seems I have baited a good few people on this thread, that's what happens when you have time on your hands after you have banked your profits. oh well.

can you now go back to baiting Toasty as I was quite enjoying that exchange before barjon rudely closed the thread, you had only just got him warmed up.

anyway I always look for the positives, I haven't had a death threat via pm for over a month now.

I thought that was bad form to some extent, as there much left to say. Not on the original topic of course, although there never was much to say about that. Still, Jon is a tolerably good egg, so I will refrain from poking him in the ribs by continuing the argument.

A whole month? Well, I'd love to oblige, but I'm a bit snowed under with death threats at the moment - those waiting to be sent out, those I need to follow up on, and of course (the largest number by some way) those that I must reply to.

Sorry old bean, you'll just have to try harder to offend and hope that some public-spirited fellow does the right thing.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

On an institutional platform such as routers you don't see market depth as you would on a retail platform. For starters, and I am referring to currencies, you can pull up banks individually and see their quotes. This is of little benefit to the retail user of course. In terms of volume traded, that's irrelevant. All the institutions want to see is who is quoting what and how much is available. For Reuters to show volume they would need to subscribe to the data from each institution. They probably do show volume through their dealing system but again that's irrelevant

now I am confused. I thought I would see market depth on EBS as I def dont see it on a retail platform. no worries I am not really that interested in the orders anyway I am more interested in the volume. For me the volume would be useful at least for research purpose. For example if I thought someone was accumulating I would like to see the volume prints, there are all sorts of things i could use it for. Are you saying EBS / other similar platforms dont show volume?

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

I thought that was bad form to some extent, as there much left to say. Not on the original topic of course, although there never was much to say about that. Still, Jon is a tolerably good egg, so I will refrain from poking him in the ribs by continuing the argument.

A whole month? Well, I'd love to oblige, but I'm a bit snowed under with death threats at the moment - those waiting to be sent out, those I need to follow up on, and of course (the largest number by some way) those that I must reply to.

Sorry old bean, you'll just have to try harder to offend and hope that some public-spirited fellow does the right thing.

there was a lot left to say, you had him on the ropes, thought that thread had a lot of mileage left in it, I was long it for the week.

Now which vendor can we bait next? anyone on the radar. I was thinking Mr Charts, but he is clever he doesn't rise to the bait.

 

[rsh01]

my dear fellow you are the subject of something called baiting.

ah i get it, you started a thread to bait people. absolutely nothing to do with the thread title. well dammit you really got me hook line & sinker, you cheeky card, you scallywag you.

makes sense now, cos imagine someone starting a thread telling people why they loose, when they didnt actually know themselves. too crazy to imagine huh?

looking fwd to your next thread, now i know they all come with hidden agendas.

 

[Martinghoul]

that's all good stuff. I would of course be interested in an explanation of 'drive by' however understand if you cannot/will not post this.

Why wouldn't I post this? "Drive-by", aka "spraying the street", is what happens when someone with a large size to do, in order to get the best price, trades with multiple dealers simultaneously or in very quick succession. So, say, I have to sell 10bn EURUSD. I could do the right thing or I could simultaneously hit 10 dealers' bids in 1bn each. In order to hedge themselves, all 10 dealers will then have to go into the mkt at the same time and try to find liquidity, potentially causing all sorts of shenanigans and losing money. So it might be good for me, since I turn my liquidity problem into a dealer's liquidity problem. However, next time I ask, dealers won't be too willing to deal with me, which is why drive-by's are, generally, rare (a sign of desperation, most of the time).

I wonder if you could help on one matter. I am basically trying to find out exactly what a trader can see from the EBS platform that a bucket shop trader cannot. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is that the top level spot FX market is transacted on the EBS platform, other high level platforms are out there but EBS has the bulk of volume?

so for you guys trading on EBS I guess you can see all of the liquidity available to you using your prime broker's credit. clearly a retail trader cannot see that. What about transactions, like time and sales? can you see volume being transacted. now that would be useful.

different traders say different things about how much large you need get access to EBS, some say $1m others say $200k. I hear the minimum trade size is 1m = 10 retail lots = 1 large lot.

any info any of you EBS/reuters users can share would be fascinating.

Yes, my understanding is that most biz does take place over platforms like EBS, Hotspot, etc. EBS is the leading one, last time I looked, but I don't think it's an overwhelming lead. I don't use EBS myself any more, as I don't need it, but, if memory serves, you can definitely get all sorts of historical data from them (if you pay). I can't answer about the size eligibility criteria, 'cause I just don't know, sorry.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Why wouldn't I post this? "Drive-by", aka "spraying the street", is what happens when someone with a large size to do, in order to get the best price, trades with multiple dealers simultaneously or in very quick succession. So, say, I have to sell 10bn EURUSD. I could do the right thing or I could simultaneously hit 10 dealers' bids in 1bn each. In order to hedge themselves, all 10 dealers will then have to go into the mkt at the same time and try to find liquidity, potentially causing all sorts of shenanigans and losing money. So it might be good for me, since I turn my liquidity problem into a dealer's liquidity problem. However, next time I ask, dealers won't be too willing to deal with me, which is why drive-by's are, generally, rare (a sign of desperation, most of the time).

Yes, my understanding is that most biz does take place over platforms like EBS, Hotspot, etc. EBS is the leading one, last time I looked, but I don't think it's an overwhelming lead. I don't use EBS myself any more, as I don't need it, but, if memory serves, you can definitely get all sorts of historical data from them (if you pay). I can't answer about the size eligibility criteria, 'cause I just don't know, sorry.

that's great info thanks.

 

[The Leopard]

This thread has indeed provoked some interesting replies and snippets of thoroughly Good Stuff.

 

[evertontrader]

You can be assured that me and most of the other readers can clearly see you handed him his **** on a plate.

Keep up the good work.

ah i get it, you started a thread to bait people. absolutely nothing to do with the thread title. well dammit you really got me hook line & sinker, you cheeky card, you scallywag you.

makes sense now, cos imagine someone starting a thread telling people why they loose, when they didnt actually know themselves. too crazy to imagine huh?

looking fwd to your next thread, now i know they all come with hidden agendas.

 

[Trader333]

Thread closed at request of OP