Why not use the exchanges?

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jonty

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Hello everyone,

I plan to soon start trading binaries on the FTSE and possibly the DOW. I was looking at BinaryBet today for the FTSE Higher/Lower and the spread was usually between 3.5 and 4 but sometimes 5. This seems huge to me and makes me reluctant to trade especially coupled with the chance the prices can be withdrawn.

I also looked at Betfair which seems to do good volumes on the Intraday hourly markets (only on the FTSE, these markets don't exist for the DOW for some reason) but not for the FTSE Higher/Lower which is illiquid and composed of lots of small players, maybe there's a market maker on there on other days I don't know.

Its still much better for us to trade on Betfair or even Intrade (which looks extremely illiquid at the moment since business moved from Tradesports). I read in the forum that some people prefer the Binary format but paying all these costs for the luxury of not having to divide your numbers into 100 and figure for some commission seems irrational to me.

I'd much rather trade on the FTSE Higher/Lower market on Betfair. I'm still new to this and I don't have the software to continually make markets on Betfair but I reckon once I'm up and going I'd quote a reasonable market if anyone asked me to. So if anyone is interested add me to your msn messenger (my msn is [email protected], anyone feel free to add me) and maybe we can negotiate better prices between ourselves.

Cheers,

Jonathan.
 
There's a program called Binarysoft available. It converts the Betfair decimal odds into the binary format.

I agree, I've looked at the Betfair FTSE hourly markets and sometimes the volumes are really low, but this often improves dramatically nearer to the event.

I get the impression that binary betting is becoming more popular. Hopefully we will then see more competition and tighter spreads. The spreads on the binary sports markets are far wider. :-0

OK, I'll keep your offer in mind.
 
The program is called BinarySoft BDI, available at http://www.binarysoft.co.uk/bdi/

I'm working on v1.1 which should be released shortly, plus I'm also a long way into developing a market making program for all the financial markets on Betfair which will be online later in the year :)
 
jules101 said:
The program is called BinarySoft BDI, available at http://www.binarysoft.co.uk/bdi/

I'm working on v1.1 which should be released shortly, plus I'm also a long way into developing a market making program for all the financial markets on Betfair which will be online later in the year :)
Click to expand...

Looks nice Jules, I may well take a look at it now the liquidity on Intrade isn't what it used to be. Aren't you worried about the TT ladder patent though, or have you licensed the technology from TT like 1sttick did?
 
Yeah I was only aware very recently that TT had filed a "ladder" patent, although I think it's unlikely that my interface infringes on the patent because it is merely a mapping from decimal odds to binary odds, and, for the majority of binary prices in the ladder, no trade actually takes place at that precise binary price.

Also, there are several other Betfair API apps which have had ladder interfaces for several years without any problems from TT...
 
jules101 said:
Yeah I was only aware very recently that TT had filed a "ladder" patent, although I think it's unlikely that my interface infringes on the patent because it is merely a mapping from decimal odds to binary odds, and, for the majority of binary prices in the ladder, no trade actually takes place at that precise binary price.

Also, there are several other Betfair API apps which have had ladder interfaces for several years without any problems from TT...
Click to expand...

It patent applies to the movement of the ladder to show BBO at all times in the center. Other trading programs can use a ladder, they just can't automatically move the ladder; the user has to scroll to get the BBO area of the ladder
 
Robertral said:
It patent applies to the movement of the ladder to show BBO at all times in the center. Other trading programs can use a ladder, they just can't automatically move the ladder; the user has to scroll to get the BBO area of the ladder
Click to expand...

So basically I'm not allowed to implement an "auto centering" feature? (I think a couple of existing Betfair API ladder interfaces have had an "auto centre" feature for quite a while)
 
Last edited:
jules101 said:
So basically I'm not allowed to implement an "auto centering" feature? (I think a couple of existing Betfair API ladder interfaces have had an "auto centre" feature for quite a while)
Click to expand...

Best to check with your lawyer.
 
Robertral said:
It patent applies to the movement of the ladder to show BBO at all times in the center. Other trading programs can use a ladder, they just can't automatically move the ladder; the user has to scroll to get the BBO area of the ladder
Click to expand...

Really? If the best bid and offer always stayed in the same place on the screen in TT, it would be nowhere near as good!

TT's patents seem pretty wide-ranging to me. I'm not an expert and haven't sought legal advice on the matter, but I've steered well clear of putting ladders in any of my software. You can look at the patents "Click based trading with dynamic display of bid and ask prices" and "Click based trading with intuitive grid display of market depth" by searching for Trading Technologies at http://gb.espacenet.com
 
I agree. I worked closely with some IP lawyers recently in both London and NY on a software patent issue. It became clear very that the patent being researched would not stand up in a court of law.

The US is big on intellectual property in software and it really is a nonsense, they grant patents on anything and then let people litigate over the issues later. So many patents that I see are perfectly natural innovations, the trend may be reversing in the states however... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHigP6BkC8pE&refer=home

The patents you mention can be found below (European editions), these are applicable to anyone selling a sufficiently similar product in the European market.

If you have the time, money and inclination you may consider challenging software patents which stand in your way in the event that the holder attempts enforcement action. You better gear up for it first though, don't let them take you by surprise.

As the warning goes... I'm not a lawyer, just my 2c.


http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2002099644&F=8

and

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB2377527&CY=ep&LG=LG4&QPN=GB2377527
 
Some of the software patent/ownership claims in recent years such as Amazon trying to patent "1-Click" and British Telecom trying to claim ownership of the hyperlink are just completely ridiculous and it actually makes me pretty angry :devilish:
 
This type of thing is not sustainable, even for the duration of such a patent.

The US has what it calls the "Priority Watch List" of countries who regard US IP with less seriousness than they themselves do. You will be unsurprised to learn that the members of the list are the major emerging economies. http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2007/04/30/china-russia-top-u-s-priority-watch-list-of-piracy-havens

Patents stifle economic growth and stagnate development, one man's 'rip-off' or 'piracy' is another man's attempt to earn a living doing something that others already are or perhaps an attempt to improve upon the so-called 'IP' for the benefit of himself and others. I think that in the long run the world will give up on the patent concept as it becomes harder to enforce in a global economy.

As so many countries are prepared to host infringers of other countries patents and industry becomes even more globalised and web based there will just be an increase in 'jurisdiction arbitrage'.

NQR
 
IP law is essential to encourage innovation in an economy. Having no IP law would be equally stiffling as having too much.

The two competing aims of IP are to protect an individual or company's right to profit from genuine innovation without preventing fair competition. Competition will bring improvement and greater economic efficiency, but no one would spend a bean on R&D if it was likely that their product would just be ripped off at the end.

Its a fine balance but an important one.
 
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