why is the trading community so full of scammers and BS??

[JohnnyForex]

I have not come to a conclusion because nobody has presented any evidence.

Here is one review I saw the other day on futures.io (if it's okay to link to a different forum):

ROBERT HOFFMAN or ROB HOFFMAN SnP500Trader https://www.becomeabettertrader.com/ - Trading Reviews and Vendors

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futures.io

 

[tomorton]

Thanks JohnnyForex. On the face of it (I haven't dug up some charts and gone back to double-check what was posted) this 100% fits the profile of a trading technique that cannot work - i.e. a Martingale system. This fully qualifies as a scam in my opinion, as the strategy has no basis in either TA or FA and the risk of a total loss is very high.

On the other hand, I note that this episode occurred 11 years ago. Which implies its actually pretty hard to find ongoing scams. I have no idea what Rob Hoffmann is doing now - he might be using a bona fide strategy if he's still even in the business.

I also have to note that Martingale systems are not outlawed by any regulator. So if he wants to sell something that people want to buy, even though you and I might believe it sincerely to be crap, its hard to say he's being anything other than a good businessman. I mean, you and I might believe that designer water in small bottles imported from Patagonian glaciers is of no benefit to the consumer but, hey, if they want to buy it........

 

[JohnnyForex]

...100% fits the profile of a trading technique that cannot work - i.e. a Martingale system. This fully qualifies as a scam in my opinion, as the strategy has no basis in either TA or FA and the risk of a total loss is very high.

On the other hand, I note that this episode occurred 11 years ago. Which implies its actually pretty hard to find ongoing scams. I have no idea what Rob Hoffmann is doing now - he might be using a bona fide strategy if he's still even in the business.

It's not like I was digging deep and that's all I found. I simply linked to something I saw just the other day.

Maybe we have different things in mind when we talk about scams or courses being worthless. A scam may be something that's an outright fraud. My view isn't that every course is a scam, BUT, I think very few (if any) courses can guide a newbie from newbie trader to a successful profitable trader.

I can't provide a better example than the hedge fund guy I mentioned who's a published author, but fails to make money in his own fund. I could drop his name and you and others could verify it for yourself as his track record on the fund is public, but I think that would make me an asshole, so I ask that you trust me instead. As an option I could provide it in private messaging.

 

[tomorton]

It's not like I was digging deep and that's all I found. I simply linked to something I saw just the other day.

Maybe we have different things in mind when we talk about scams or courses being worthless. A scam may be something that's an outright fraud. My view isn't that every course is a scam, BUT, I think very few (if any) courses can guide a newbie from newbie trader to a successful profitable trader.

I can't provide a better example than the hedge fund guy I mentioned who's a published author, but fails to make money in his own fund. I could drop his name and you and others could verify it for yourself as his track record on the fund is public, but I think that would make me an asshole, so I ask that you trust me instead. As an option I could provide it in private messaging.

Hmmm, yes, I think we disagree about what a scam is.

I think its a product that can't work but most traders believe its an expensive product. This is such an anti-capitalist attitude that its hard to see it on a trading website without a double-take. If you have a product to sell, I say sell it for as much as you can get.

Its a fact that few traders make a profit but nowhere have I ever seen the effect of training on the winner:loser ratio quantified. Its hard to think that training has no beneficial effect to any degree for any trader.

 

[JohnnyForex]

Its a fact that few traders make a profit but nowhere have I ever seen the effect of training on the winner:loser ratio quantified. Its hard to think that training has no beneficial effect to any degree for any trader.

Let's just agree to disagree, then.

I'm sure many of these courses have interesting and even correct information about how the market moves or operates, but it's still a long way from there and to becoming a consistently profitable trader. I think being a trader is a very marginal business. Especially day trading. That's why it's so hard to teach. And I think most of those who teach aren't profitable themselves and why should they then expect to teach others to do something they can't do themselves.

Hell, I've wondered if I should compile a book or a course myself and start selling it. After all, I have some unique information amassed that I haven't seen taught elsewhere. It could be an easier way to become rich than actual trading.

 

[tomorton]

I do think that traders don't fail because of poor training. Mostly they fail because they had no training at all.

Even a training course with a marginal effect on performance can lead to financial security - but in practice it won't happen because most traders screw themselves up quicker and more finally than any vendor will.

 

[Mumpsimus]

I do think that traders don't fail because of poor training. Mostly they fail because they had no training at all.

mmmmyes-ish...if you refer to the Turtles experiment, they had excellent training but a fair percentage just could not follow the rules. Even if we don't necessarily act on irrational impulses that doesn't mean we don't have them. I operate a parallel micro-trading account which I think of as a safety valve for when I can'r sit on my hands any longer or just have the urge to buy/sell because it can't possibly go lower/higher 🙂 It"s saved me a fortune and I still get to take a punt...

 

[LuckyMac]

mmmmyes-ish...if you refer to the Turtles experiment, they had excellent training but a fair percentage just could not follow the rules. Even if we don't necessarily act on irrational impulses that doesn't mean we don't have them. I operate a parallel micro-trading account which I think of as a safety valve for when I can'r sit on my hands any longer or just have the urge to buy/sell because it can't possibly go lower/higher 🙂 It"s saved me a fortune and I still get to take a punt...

Ive heard a lot do this. It is a clever way to keep your hands busy. Its just so many think of it as a hobby or some fun when it should be treated like a business and seriously

 

[Attila the trader]

Here's the most recent example I can offer and I'll keep the details out of it in order to not out anyone, but I can assure you all it's 100 % true.

A well respected sell side analyst publishes a book on how to achieve success in the markets using mostly classical TA. I haven't read the book, but I've seen some of his free analysis over the years and it's pretty much common TA where he's great at explaining what price DID. MAs, trend lines, S/R, etc.

The same analyst leaves his analyst job to start his own fund. The result for 2021? A net loss! I've read his market updates and there's always some nice excuse for why each month pretty much was a net loss.

To be honest, I'm sure he's doing WAY better than most published authors on the markets.

Another guy I followed in the past (but never paid up for his premium content) I also discovered were doing pretty bad in the markets. Considering how he's selling expensive courses I suppose it's a reason he's doing that and not cleaning up in the market place.

Did anyone see Jim Simons trying to teach people to trade?

yeah , pretty much all the gurus make their income or make a large potion of it through their courses not trading itself , ive heard that even Gann could not support his family through trading and made his living through courses .

 

[Attila the trader]

A scam may be something that's an outright fraud. My view isn't that every course is a scam

most of the courses are not a complete fraud , majority of them charge a ridiculous amount for things you can learn for a faction of the price, or for free on the internet, and they are selling it like its some secrete knowledge .

 

[tomorton]

most of the courses are not a complete fraud , majority of them charge a ridiculous amount for things you can learn for a faction of the price, or for free on the internet, and they are selling it like its some secrete knowledge .

Which sounds like a good business model to me.

 

[tomorton]

most of the courses are not a complete fraud , majority of them charge a ridiculous amount for things you can learn for a faction of the price, or for free on the internet, and they are selling it like its some secrete knowledge .

What you say is true, almost everything that is knowable and useful to know about the markets can be found on the internet somewhere for free.

This itself raises further issues though. If you can find 10,000 internet pages referencing "stock market trading", which is the one that is the most useful? Which are the 9,999 which should be ignored? Which are the two pages that should be consulted but then their content adapted or combined?

When I have asked successful traders if they would post details of their strategies, they reply vehemently that it has taken them maybe months or years to get where they are today and they have no intention of giving it away for free.

So although information is free, selecting the right information is a service with value, and the effort of selection has a cost. That's what's being sold.

 

[JohnnyForex]

I do think that traders don't fail because of poor training. Mostly they fail because they had no training at all.

Even a training course with a marginal effect on performance can lead to financial security - but in practice it won't happen because most traders screw themselves up quicker and more finally than any vendor will.

100 % agree.

However, receiving training from someone whos' not profitable themselves with their own methodologies is of little use and can even cause more harm than good. That's what I'm trying to get across here.

Do there exist material available for the public that can be valuable and steer them on the right path? I'm sure there is, but it will be a jungle to navigate among all the courses which are of zero value.

Personally, I would make sure that the course holder have a track record. Not an endorsement, but I see that Linda Raschke is offering some kind of mentoring/services. I've always been impressed with what she had to say on trading and she actually have a background as a floor trader / off-the-floor trader and I believe she have a track record, too. Although I don't know the actual numbers.

Most course holders don't have that kind of background.

For example, I've seen zero proof that Al Brooks is actually making any money. And from what I've heard from people attending his room what he's saying is always kind of vague and never any accurate trading calls.

 

[Attila the trader]

Which sounds like a good business model to me.

definitely , selling the shovel is easier than digging for gold

 

[tomorton]

definitely , selling the shovel is easier than digging for gold

Agreed. And to go further - selling shovels is not a scam. Selling designer shovels is not a scam. Selling second-hand shovels is not a scam. Shovel-sellers who don't dig for gold are not scammers.

 

[momo3HC]

Why is the trading community so full of scammers and BS?​

I think the answer is extremely simple: Because these "scams" work and there's a constant supply of new gullible traders who fall for it.

Absolutely right. Like it`s said - The only endless thing except The Universe is the human stupidity.