Who trades for a living? It is possible?

[piphoe]

The classic thought is risk diminishes as the TF expands. I think the opposite, HFT dissect microseconds and not the "daily" because in part the less risk.

How far can you see out? I'm good for about 5 mins...

 

[Signalcalc]

Modern government ideally exists to protect the interests of the many and limit the influence of the few, government's ideal purpose is not to serve its own interests, beyond the interests of the many. The online trading-vendor culture is generally an ethically depraved lot, in need of government-backed reforms, if not total outlawing.

The purpose of govt is to collect tax dollars from those that can provide it in order to distribute it amongst the services that provide for the masses. What you have overlooked is that the few people that trade (and gamble) are rich enough to generate large amounts of tax dollars. Therefore govts purpose is not to serve the trader but to encourage the trader to ultimately lose so that revenue can be collected via the brokers, that's why SpreadBetting is tax free in the U.K., provided as an incentive to encourage more people to trade and lose.

Regulation of trading vendors would lose the govt tax dollar revenue, therefore they would be reluctant to legislate and police it, its a lose lose for them in terms of having to pay for regulation and policing with tax and losing revenue by discouraging trading.

 

[petetrades]

The purpose of govt is to collect tax dollars from those that can provide it in order to distribute it amongst the services that provide for the masses. What you have overlooked is that the few people that trade (and gamble) are rich enough to generate large amounts of tax dollars. Therefore govts purpose is not to serve the trader but to encourage the trader to ultimately lose so that revenue can be collected via the brokers, that's why SpreadBetting is tax free in the U.K., provided as an incentive to encourage more people to trade and lose.

Regulation of trading vendors would lose the govt tax dollar revenue, therefore they would be reluctant to legislate and police it, its a lose lose for them in terms of having to pay for regulation and policing with tax and losing revenue by discouraging trading.

No, trading is not seen as a gambling hobby for rich people in general, if it were clearly marketed and regulated in that regard I would be ok with trading being allowed for the public. As of now, It is marketed as a way for people to better their financial position by developing a "skill" *it's a martketing myth that trading is a skill which improves over time with practice and study*. The whole existence of proprietary trading firms is there to suggest you can trade as a career, not as a indulgent hobby for government tax money.

Outlaw proprietary trading firms, outlaw trading vendors, outlaw them all. If retail trading primarily exists for government revenue maybe the government should take over the brokerages and the marketing of for-profit trading propaganda, or literature as some might call it, that would be a start in getting past this digital stone age online trading culture currently is in.

 

[joseph1986]

No, trading is not seen as a gambling hobby for rich people in general, if it were clearly marketed and regulated in that regard I would be ok with trading being allowed for the public. As of now, It is marketed as a way for people to better their financial position by developing a "skill" *it's a martketing myth that trading is a skill which improves over time with practice and study*. The whole existence of proprietary trading firms is there to suggest you can trade as a career, not as a indulgent hobby for government tax money.

Outlaw proprietary trading firms, outlaw trading vendors, outlaw them all. If retail trading primarily exists for government revenue maybe the government should take over the brokerages and the marketing of for-profit trading propaganda, or literature as some might call it, that would be a start in getting past this digital stone age online trading culture currently is in.

Outlaw them....because you're not making money

 

[petetrades]

Outlaw them....because you're not making money

Statistically speaking. virtually no one is making money from retail trading other than the brokerages, governments, and big banks and vendors.

 

[Signalcalc]

Statistically speaking. virtually no one is making money from retail trading other than the brokerages, governments, and big banks and vendors.

And therein lies my point, nothing will change while the big boys make money from it, wether it be for tax or for corporate profits.

Hoping to ban such things is wishful thinking.

I am intrigued why you think trading vendors are a cause of retail traders losses though, have you lost money by following vendors advice? Are you feeling bitter about an experience with a vendor? Have you started a thread to discuss your hypothesis?

 

[Signalcalc]

No, trading is not seen as a gambling hobby for rich people in general, if it were clearly marketed and regulated in that regard I would be ok with trading being allowed for the public. As of now, It is marketed as a way for people to better their financial position by developing a "skill" *it's a martketing myth that trading is a skill which improves over time with practice and study*. The whole existence of proprietary trading firms is there to suggest you can trade as a career, not as a indulgent hobby for government tax money.

Really! Then why does the inland revenue make it tax free for the punter. Can you imagine the loss of revenue if it there was a tax for the punter? Never mind the loss of profits for brokerages.

It's a facade put forward by the industry to make it look like it's not gambling when those that benefit from the industry know exactly how, where and why it makes money from retail.

In a way it analogous to the food industry govts are lobbied to make 'fat free' food a choice for consumers when the irony is that the fat is removed and replaced with sugar which is the very thing that makes you fat.

Or why the dieting industry continues to make profits while people get fatter, because calorie restricted diets have the exact opposite effect over the longer term but the industry blames the consumer for lapsing back into old habits when in fact it's the biological effect of restricting calories that switches the metabolism into starvation mode and people put the fat back on again and more, self perpetuating industry.

Great for corporate profits and tax revenues, not much regulation applied and even encouraged by govts, a lose lose for consumers.

So consumers will not get control of fat from fat free food even though it is marketed as such.
Consumers will not lose weight from diets even though they are marketed as such.
Traders will not make money trading even though it is marketed as such.

I dare say the list is endless.

 

[petetrades]

And therein lies my point, nothing will change while the big boys make money from it, wether it be for tax or for corporate profits.

Hoping to ban such things is wishful thinking.

I am intrigued why you think trading vendors are a cause of retail traders losses though, have you lost money by following vendors advice? Are you feeling bitter about an experience with a vendor? Have you started a thread to discuss your hypothesis?

Yes I have. Retail trading is very difficult and solitary, vendors exploit both of these aspects of trading to lure in and poison their vulnerable prey. I usually get bullied and threatened by saying I am posting libelous defamatory statements about vendors by the many shills on and hidden vendors who hang out on trading forums.

 

[itspossible]

Yes I have. Retail trading is very difficult and solitary, vendors exploit both of these aspects of trading to lure in and poison their vulnerable prey. I usually get bullied and threatened by saying I am posting libelous defamatory statements about vendors by the many shills on and hidden vendors who hang out on trading forums.

Any layman or person with an ounce of common sense will question why a vendor needs to sell something.Why dont they just work their own system and make ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

 

[hewhodareswins]

Hi all, what on earth are you guys doing? Making money on the markets is not easy but its not impossible either. I trade full time and make my living from it. My performances range from 8% to 50% per month. I've been trading a long time and its been a learning journey. All my losses in the past were because of MY mistakes and mistakes are only mistakes if you repeat them. I learned from my mistakes and I feel pain when I make a mistake these days so I am so careful never to make one. Trading for me is a mind game so its important for me to keep a clear head, always plan everything and stick to my plan!

 

[piphoe]

Any layman or person with an ounce of common sense will question why a vendor needs to sell something.Why dont they just work their own system and make ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.

My answer would be...

Why not do both? Lot of stress trading as you pointed out on another thread, lot less stress in monthly subscriptions.

If giving an honest sincere service, why not sell your trades or methods?

 

[piphoe]

I would pay a sincere service from a professional for calls, I have in the distant past subscribed to a service but was conned now a lot more suspicious. Since that bad experience, I've become lot more cynical.

However, if an honest service would appear, I'd consider singing on.

 

[petetrades]

My answer would be...

Why not do both? Lot of stress trading as you pointed out on another thread, lot less stress in monthly subscriptions.

If giving an honest sincere service, why not sell your trades or methods?

Ethical reasons would prevent many from selling trading advice. Many universities are now offering open-source (free) classes online. If trading as a consistent source of income were possible many traders would do the same.

 

[new_trader]

This is not relevant to the discussion because the subject of this thread, trading for a living, would require a very sharp edge. If 1 percent of traders are profitable and if 90 percent of that 1 percent traders only make enough to pay for a daily trip to McDonalds, while waiting for their retirement dole then that would explain why traders often supplement their income by selling misleading and dangerous trading vendor material, even though they can be said to have an edge. Their behaviour in unethical and uncivilised and they are in need of serious government intervention as soon as possible.

I agreed with you up until you called for government intervention...The industry doesn’t need any more Government intervention. There is a reason why someone very wise came up with the phrase “A fool and their money are soon parted”. You can’t expect the Government to outlaw fools...there won’t be many people left!

 

[joseph1986]

Statistically speaking. virtually no one is making money from retail trading other than the brokerages, governments, and big banks and vendors.

now you're in my court.
Cite your statistical evidence

 

[petetrades]

now you're in my court.
Cite your statistical evidence

Brokerages self-report for marketing purposes that 10% or less of accounts are profitable, the actual figures must be much lower than that due to brokerage's conflict of interest and lack of transparency. Think about how much you'd have to pay for data, fees, commissions, taxes, etc even in the rare event that you did have a profitable year from day trading. Someone's making a lot of risk-free money but it's not you, the retail trader...unless you lack ethics and become a vendor.

 

[joseph1986]

Brokerages self-report for marketing purposes that 10% or less of accounts are profitable, the actual figures must be much lower than that due to brokerage's conflict of interest and lack of transparency. Think about how much you'd have to pay for data, fees, commissions, taxes, etc even in the rare event that you did have a profitable year from day trading. Someone's making a lot of risk-free money but it's not you, the retail trader...unless you lack ethics and become a vendor.

Go to your local library, get a library card and start reading, get a chair and read from morning to night....this will help you exponentially more compared to complaining all day on these boards. I laugh at the idea that you would be on here complaining if you actually found an edge on the market. You would be a much more quiet and happy school girl

 

[petetrades]

Go to your local library, get a library card and start reading, get a chair and read from morning to night....this will help you exponentially more compared to complaining all day on these boards. I laugh at the idea that you would be on here complaining if you actually found an edge on the market. You would be a much more quiet and happy school girl

Or: do backtesting (with trading expenses factored into the tests) over enough historical data and realize that the concept of an "edge" is a lie you've been sold.

 

[joseph1986]

Or: do backtesting over enough data and realize that the concept of an "edge" is a lie you've been sold.

ok it's a lie. Doesn't exist. Have a nice day.

 

[Big_P]

Or: do backtesting (with trading expenses factored into the tests) over enough historical data and realize that the concept of an "edge" is a lie you've been sold.

Gaining an edge from backtesting over a statistically significant sample size and then trading that edge to become consistently profitable is absolutely possible.

100%.

I have seen it done.