Who Are You?

[DionysusToast]

Serious question - who are you?

When you read the above sentence, a thought will pop into your head. It might be "another load of bo11ox from DT", it might be your name, it might be "Close the thread"...

Whatever that thought is. It probably came in the form of a narration, a voice in your head. Most of us have this narrator in our head all day. It's something we all have and we probably never question it.

When you learn a skill, it is the narrator that is directing you. For example, when you learn to drive, the narrator is telling you step by step what to do next. Mirrors, clutch, gears, steering - all done in a slow and very deliberate manner and all somewhat overwhelming. The narrator has the instructions but he's not that great at execution.

Once you are proficient at driving, the narrator no longer takes any part in the activity.It is as if you are on auto-pilot. I missed the day in biology where they discussed that body part...

In fact, with almost all skills you learn, the narrator would actually get in the way at execution time. Imagine playing tennis and constantly thinking about your stance, your grip, the position of your opponent, speed of the ball etc. etc. You'd have a tough time playing through all that noise. In fact, when you play a game like tennis, chances are the narrator is silent and you are just enjoying the game.

So who is this narrator? Is the narrator you? Are you the narrator? Is the narrator a small part of who you are?

And who should be doing the trading?

 

[Shakone]

These are quite tricky questions. But when I read that first question, the answer doesn't come in the form of narration really, it's a reaction with an image and feeling, not words or a voice in my head.

I agree that overthinking things while doing a task can damage the results. OFten because we already know what to do better and quicker than the narration. We're much more than the narrator.

If you get into meditation, I think you'll find that below that surfce narration, there's another narration going on almost all the time (which isn't so helpful either) and something below that too.

 

[wackypete2]

So who is this narrator?

James Earl Jones?

 

[DionysusToast]

These are quite tricky questions. But when I read that first question, the answer doesn't come in the form of narration really, it's a reaction with an image and feeling, not words or a voice in my head.

I agree that overthinking things while doing a task can damage the results. OFten because we already know what to do better and quicker than the narration. We're much more than the narrator.

If you get into meditation, I think you'll find that below that surfce narration, there's another narration going on almost all the time (which isn't so helpful either) and something below that too.

Good points.

If you think too much or want to start practising switching off the narrator, it's fairly easy.

Just think to yourself "what will I think about next?" over and over. The thoughts stop. For a while you'll be able to stop the "what will I think about next" and you'll be free of conscious thought. Which is nice.

Anyway. Reason I bring this up is that we do so many things on "autopilot" in life, yet when you mention "gut", "intuition" or "feel" about trading, a lot of people think this is bad or that it relates to knee-jerk reactions or randomness.

I can hit a tennis ball back across the net. On the other hand, given the velocity of the ball from the opposing player, the distance between us and the current position of my own racquet. I would have a VERY hard time figuring out on paper how long it would take for the ball to travel to me and at what point in time I needed to start moving my racquet. I couldn't do the math but I can hit the ball.

If I employ the narrator to hit the ball, he will fail.

 

[barjon]

At its best intuition is the subconscious application of assembled knowledge/experience so, as long as you've assembled the right knowledge, it's probably the most valuable weapon in the armoury. My star drug catcher years ago had no idea how he did it, just intuition born from his long experience.

 

[Shakone]

Good points.

If you think too much or want to start practising switching off the narrator, it's fairly easy.

Just think to yourself "what will I think about next?" over and over. The thoughts stop. For a while you'll be able to stop the "what will I think about next" and you'll be free of conscious thought. Which is nice.

Anyway. Reason I bring this up is that we do so many things on "autopilot" in life, yet when you mention "gut", "intuition" or "feel" about trading, a lot of people think this is bad or that it relates to knee-jerk reactions or randomness.

I can hit a tennis ball back across the net. On the other hand, given the velocity of the ball from the opposing player, the distance between us and the current position of my own racquet. I would have a VERY hard time figuring out on paper how long it would take for the ball to travel to me and at what point in time I needed to start moving my racquet. I couldn't do the math but I can hit the ball.

If I employ the narrator to hit the ball, he will fail.

Yes. In trading though, do you think this is because in the early days we learn to misinterpret these gut feelings and it costs us. So then we don't trust it at all.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere before, but there was a day a month or two back, where EURUSD had been going up strongly all day, and it was around US lunch time. I took a short, and it moved more against me and stopped me out. It kept making new highs on short timeframes. Then it jolted up quickly to a new high, and I had the gut thought, 'this is going to go up forever' and there was an instant where I was tempted to jump in long (and would have done in my early trading days). And I then said to myself, 'that's the top of the day then', and it was. And it was the top for the next several days.

So had I jumped on long, and followed my gut, I'd have been killed, because the feeling isn't really interpreted correctly.

 

[counter_violent]

At its best intuition is the subconscious application of assembled knowledge/experience so, as long as you've assembled the right knowledge, it's probably the most valuable weapon in the armoury. My star drug catcher years ago had no idea how he did it, just intuition born from his long experience.

It's obvious, he had a nose for it !

 

[robster970]

Serious question - who are you?

When you read the above sentence, a thought will pop into your head. It might be "another load of bo11ox from DT", it might be your name, it might be "Close the thread"...

Whatever that thought is. It probably came in the form of a narration, a voice in your head. Most of us have this narrator in our head all day. It's something we all have and we probably never question it.

When you learn a skill, it is the narrator that is directing you. For example, when you learn to drive, the narrator is telling you step by step what to do next. Mirrors, clutch, gears, steering - all done in a slow and very deliberate manner and all somewhat overwhelming. The narrator has the instructions but he's not that great at execution.

Once you are proficient at driving, the narrator no longer takes any part in the activity.It is as if you are on auto-pilot. I missed the day in biology where they discussed that body part...

In fact, with almost all skills you learn, the narrator would actually get in the way at execution time. Imagine playing tennis and constantly thinking about your stance, your grip, the position of your opponent, speed of the ball etc. etc. You'd have a tough time playing through all that noise. In fact, when you play a game like tennis, chances are the narrator is silent and you are just enjoying the game.

So who is this narrator? Is the narrator you? Are you the narrator? Is the narrator a small part of who you are?

And who should be doing the trading?

You should read this Pedro if you haven't already - Thinking, Fast and Slow: Amazon.co.uk: Daniel Kahneman: Books

The author got his nobel prize for coming up with prospect theory and is one of the fathers of behavioural finance. The book covers your inner narrator (system 2) and the relationship with the silent you (system 1).

 

[Liquid validity]

Serious question - who are you?

In fact, with almost all skills you learn, the narrator would actually get in the way
at execution time. Imagine playing tennis and constantly thinking about your
stance, your grip, the position of your opponent, speed of the ball etc. etc.
You'd have a tough time playing through all that noise. In fact, when you play a
game like tennis, chances are the narrator is silent and you are just enjoying the game.

This is me:

"Multi sport ball serving machine. The Lobster Model 301, Fitted with
wheels for mobility. 135 ball capacity, ball serve speed of between 20-65 mph
every 3, 6, or 12 seconds as required. Random ball facility i.e. left-right movement of barrel."

Well you did ask...
I know I'm a cnut, I'll shut up now

 

[Hakuna Matata]

talking to yourself like this can be a useful trick of getting rid of a nasty habit, be it trading related or not.

 

[robster970]

talking to yourself like this can be a useful trick of getting rid of a nasty habit, be it trading related or not.

I agree. I normally pep myself up using the 'Charles Manson' technique..

 

[DionysusToast]

talking to yourself like this can be a useful trick of getting rid of a nasty habit, be it trading related or not.

Well - everybody does it inside their own head.

I can't really see why those that vocalize it are considered such nutters.

Catch yourself, next time you see a nutter talking to himself.

"That blokes m-m-m-m-m-mental" you'll say to yourself in your head....

 

[counter_violent]

Well - everybody does it inside their own head.

I can't really see why those that vocalize it are considered such nutters.

Catch yourself, next time you see a nutter talking to himself.

"That blokes m-m-m-m-m-mental" you'll say to yourself in your head....

Dime - That blokes a nutter - YouTube

 

[DionysusToast]

Yes. In trading though, do you think this is because in the early days we learn to misinterpret these gut feelings and it costs us. So then we don't trust it at all.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere before, but there was a day a month or two back, where EURUSD had been going up strongly all day, and it was around US lunch time. I took a short, and it moved more against me and stopped me out. It kept making new highs on short timeframes. Then it jolted up quickly to a new high, and I had the gut thought, 'this is going to go up forever' and there was an instant where I was tempted to jump in long (and would have done in my early trading days). And I then said to myself, 'that's the top of the day then', and it was. And it was the top for the next several days.

So had I jumped on long, and followed my gut, I'd have been killed, because the feeling isn't really interpreted correctly.

Well - gut and rules are not mutually exclusive. You have hit on one of the reasons people think that "gut/feel/intuition" are not tools to utilize during trading. They equate gut feel with trading randomly.

For me, I wouldn't buy the high of the day unless there was cause to believe that a trading range was about to fail. I don't generally get a 'gut' feeling at highs any more because my gut learnt the hard way.

 

[DionysusToast]

Tennis, ten pin bowling, sex, telling the time, flying a plane, writing, swimming, playing pool, skiing, surfing etc. etc. are things we do without much conscious effort.

These things required deliberate, conscious effort during the learning period.

We weren’t very good at these things when we first started.

Our skills improved with repetition.

Once skilled, if we focus too much on conscious effort now, after becoming proficient, our performance will be worse.

Is it not true that most skills are like this?
Is this not the rule as opposed to the exception?

 

[barjon]

 

[robster970]

Well - gut and rules are not mutually exclusive. You have hit on one of the reasons people think that "gut/feel/intuition" are not tools to utilize during trading. They equate gut feel with trading randomly.

For me, I wouldn't buy the high of the day unless there was cause to believe that a trading range was about to fail. I don't generally get a 'gut' feeling at highs any more because my gut learnt the hard way.

The gut/rule thing is interesting as it took me a long time (developmentally) to understand how the two can co-exist.

So this is an example from yesterday accompanied by two screenshots. On Sunday night, I prepped for Monday and felt that 1362-1363 on ES was a likely area to initiate a trade (marked on the first chart by the green and red line). This is planning and rules in action - that in my opinion initiating a trade from here would lead to a good opportunity.

Now the gut element for me is reading the price action in this sideways action to determine whether the base that was building here was supporting a long or a short trade. At 07:54GMT I saw enough to feel confident this was going up and initiated a trade getting filled at 1363.75. I eventually got out at 1368.50 and ES continued and closed around 1382.50 yesterday.

This for me is how rules and an internalised assessment from thousands of hours of screen time work together.

 

[barjon]

Agree with that, Rob.

My basic analysis is wholly conscious (TA based, sorry toastie ) in determining potential entry levels. I want to see price with a bit of oomph at that level but I'd be hard pressed to describe oomph in any concrete terms - it's much more to do with my feeling than any "rules".

 

[Shakone]

After thinking about this some more, when playing pool, or tennis or sports, I think there always needs to be 'some' conscious narration. When I play pool for example, it is target and positioning afterwards, but you don't play fully on gut. You decide on the shot that you can make, and that will give you positioning for the next shot, and you then look to aim carefully. You give yourself a target, and then you let the unconscious side take over and perform the action. I think it's wrong to think you just play by gut alone.

So in trading, what is the equivalent? Because I don't think there is zero narration, I think there need to be targets. IN golf tennis or pool, aim for a precise target and let the natural side take over, and you might get close to it. Aim for a wide target, or not even think about aiming at all, and you'll be all over the place.

 

[wackypete2]

Tennis, ten pin bowling, sex, telling the time, flying a plane, writing, swimming, playing pool, skiing, surfing etc. etc. are things we do without much conscious effort.

You'd be impressed by how much conscious effort I put toward just getting my wife in the mood.

Peter