Which is more difficult? Day-trading or position trading

[osho67]

Hi Stockjunkie, I am interested in PT, and would like some advice, what sort of timeframe do you go for on a PT, over a week, month ? I understand you might use intraday to get a good entry but then how long will you typically hold a position ?

Thanks

 

[Stockjunkie]

Hi Stockjunkie, I am interested in PT, and would like some advice, what sort of timeframe do you go for on a PT, over a week, month ? I understand you might use intraday to get a good entry but then how long will you typically hold a position ?

Thanks

The longest I have delberately held a position is about 3/4 days . I have a few intraday trades too , not many but certainly it does happen.

With swings being so huge these days in such short terms , there is no need to hold for more than that in my book . I mean hell the dow can go 300 points with a couple of days , if one can't get that then there is something structurally wrong.

My associates have done vey well these last 2/3 months , they have rack up 200-300% gains . I am very happy for them .

 

[commanderco]

I disagree with this . if you are saying that PT needs deep stops the I must be the exception , because my stops are nowhere near deep . drawdowns may be deeper than DT but that is after you get in the money so the relevence is less.

What you really need is excellent entry points , I and a number of people have done this over and over again.

And why can't PT's use B/A analysis , it's not rocket science.

I remember an EOD Trader once, who upon receiving an encouraging daily signal
switched to shorter TF for his entry.
He would sit there hour upon hour waiting for the signal.
One day he went to the bathroom at a critical moment and missed the signal.
He eventually went mad, the poor soul, and his family had to have him put down.
It was all terribly sad really.

 

[Stockjunkie]

I remember an EOD Trader once, who upon receiving an encouraging daily signal
switched to shorter TF for his entry.
He would sit there hour upon hour waiting for the signal.
One day he went to the bathroom at a critical moment and missed the signal.
He eventually went mad, the poor soul, and his family had to have him put down.
It was all terribly sad really.

EOD to me trading is a non starter . Why trade if you are using EOD info , you'd best be a longer term player . EOD is for those who want to trade but can't be bothered to put the time in , never works .

If you only have 1 entry point a day for the good moves , then there is something wrong the method.

Sometimes it happens good signals are missed , but if you can't hack that then you have no business trading .

Use phone orders if you need to leave your station .

 

[commanderco]

EOD to me trading is a non starter . Why trade if you are using EOD info , you'd best be a longer term player . EOD is for those who want to trade but can't be bothered to put the time in , never works .

If you only have 1 entry point a day for the good moves , then there is something wrong the method.

Sometimes it happens good signals are missed , but if you can't hack that then you have no business trading .

Use phone orders if you need to leave your station .

SJ,
Call me old fashioned, but you seem to have a certain empathy with the poor little bugger
in the story!

If the poor little bugger was still alive today and went to the bathroom, taking his phone with him.
How many hands would he need?

 

[Stockjunkie]

3 ?

 

[DTK]

Completely agree with the "they are as difficult or easy as you care to make them".

Not so sure about the "One requires deep stops, drawdowns etc, but requires no knowledge of bid/ask, time & sales etc".

They are 2 different animals that appear the same and they are as difficult or easy as you care to make them.
You need to try both in order to find out which suits you better, however you should be warned that the majority of people manage to stuff them both up equally because they cant trade two flies crawling up a glass window.

One requires deep stops, drawdowns etc, but requires no knowledge of bid/ask, time & sales etc and yet from a distance the charts look the same.
And so I come back to my opening statement.......
They are 2 different animals that appear the same and they are as difficult or easy as you care to make them.

 

[WCM]

Hi Everyone ,

I am new so bear with me while I get used to things but I saw this thread and it has an interest to me . I have had a great experience with position trading . I used to do the day trades stuff but it was too hectic and I was not getting a good enough return from it.

I then met and went on to SJ's ( streetwise2005.com ) course and I have barely had a bad day since , I am up nearly 300% in 2 months or so ! i can't tell you too much otherwise Simon may come after me with a big stick but what is really good about the method is that you can really milk your wins , varying your long and short strategy there are different tactics for each and he uses indicators in unique ways .
Best of luck to you all.

 

[osho67]

The longest I have delberately held a position is about 3/4 days . I have a few intraday trades too , not many but certainly it does happen.

With swings being so huge these days in such short terms , there is no need to hold for more than that in my book . I mean hell the dow can go 300 points with a couple of days , if one can't get that then there is something structurally wrong.

My associates have done vey well these last 2/3 months , they have rack up 200-300% gains . I am very happy for them .

Thanks for the reply, can I ask if you hold around 3/4 days, are typically going for maybe 300-600 points , how many contracts do you put on for YM?

Thanks

 

[Stockjunkie]

Hi Everyone ,

I am new so bear with me while I get used to things but I saw this thread and it has an interest to me . I have had a great experience with position trading . I used to do the day trades stuff but it was too hectic and I was not getting a good enough return from it.

I then met and went on to SJ's ( streetwise2005.com ) course and I have barely had a bad day since , I am up nearly 300% in 2 months or so ! i can't tell you too much otherwise Simon may come after me with a big stick but what is really good about the method is that you can really milk your wins , varying your long and short strategy there are different tactics for each and he uses indicators in unique ways .
Best of luck to you all.

Hi Mate ,

How are you ? actually no need to ask as you are doing very well as I expected you would . I told you the market was ripe for our sort of thing and it has worked pretty damn well I would say.

Well done , carry on .


And what's this about a stick , you know I prefer my shotgun

 

[Stockjunkie]

Thanks for the reply, can I ask if you hold around 3/4 days, are typically going for maybe 300-600 points , how many contracts do you put on for YM?

Thanks

Well , of course i would want to be maxed out ultimately but I don't really do YM because the last time I saw it ,the volumes were not up to scratch for . They may have improved I don't know , what is the average Bid / Ask now in your eyes ?

And come on , 600 points on 1 swing over 3/4 days is kind of silly , like I said it is about 300 , have a look at the chart and you will see what I mean . though over course the total amount of points in a volatile period like now may yield you 3/4 X more than that , I believe that is the sort of points gain WCM got.


For the Dow I prefer SB's as long as the total amount does not exceed US100 roughly .

 

[osho67]

I've been looking at the DOW Cash index on Advfn, does anyone know of a good source of daily/weekly/monthly charts for YM, just like what Advfn provide for DOW Indu, but for YM?

Anyway, looking at the chart for DOW, I can certainly understand what Stockjunkie is talking about, so here is my question, looking at this chart on a daily timeframe, going back a few months it seems to me all you needed was a decent trend following indicator to make pots of money, I think anything would do, moving averages, support/resistance etc basically all the stuff that doesn't work too well intraday , and assuming you had a wide stop (200-300 points)all your trades would be successful, I have not studied it too much yet, just glanced at the likely areas where I would buy and sell, it seems there is nothing to do, and virtually all your trades are going to succeed, I remember thinking much the same when I came across day trading, but even so looking at PT with my slightly more experience I still came to the same conclusion, so my questions are

Is this thinking flawed and how? I genuiely don't understand how anyone could lose on PT, or at least not lose too much, compare this to DT, where it is possible to lose for many days in a row

It seems PT requires no system really, of course if you wanted to get the maximum profit potential you could go deeper in position trading strategies, but for this discussion, I'm just going for a basic MA or some other simple trend following approach, you might not get the most out, but so what ? With a simple basic approach that requires a few minutes thinking you can produce some very nice gains, anybody can do it, is this assumption correct? If it is correct, why is the whole world not doing this ?


I was reading the new Traders magazine, http://traders-mag.com/ , their is an article on John Holsinger, who trades PT, he says there are 4 ways to make money, but does not specify them, does anyone know what the 4 ways are ?
Also, he has a win:loss ratio of around 50:50, what I don't understand is why ? Again referring to the DOW chart on Advfn, it seems a simple basic approach with a 200-300 point stoploss would produce virtually all winning trades, so obviously I am getting something wrong if a successful trader like John Holsinger is only getting around 50:50, but what exactly am I getting wrong?

Any advice appreciated

 

[Stockjunkie]

HA HA HA .

The whole world is not doing it because they can't ! most of them got burnt when they tried and that's is with most of the ideas you came up with !

MA's hehehehe - By the time that gives you a signal , you might as well flip a coin.

200-300 pt stops - yeah , keep going man , this is the quickest way to the poor house , for this sort of time frame anyway.

You'd better watch what WCM is doing .

 

[osho67]

ok, but where are I going wrong, like I said I looked at Advfn charts, and it seems the earlier comments about PT being easier have some merit, so some constructive comments would be nice
Regarding MAs, this was just a starting point , all I'm saying is some sort of trend following indicator, looking at Advfn charts, the entries at least look good, maybe a different exit strategy is required,
As for 200-300 point stoploss, I thought this was typical of a PT strategy, note I why selected this figure was because you hardly got stopped out, the trade turns back in your favour, if this is not correct can you explain a bit more?

"...that's is with most of the ideas you came up with ! "

What does this mean, what other ideas have I come up with ? I'm just laying out some concepts, fully accept I may be wrong, but possible to explain what assumptions are incorrect ?

 

[Stockjunkie]

1) 300 pt stops are NOT used in MY strategy , that belongs to the realm of the gambler .

2) You cannot count on the trend returning in your favour , you may get 1 or 2 which do not and that will hurt you bad . There are far better ways of doing things .

3) No one is going to divulge private profit strategies on the net . The idea that you can pick up 1 or 2 freebies on the net and then make money is a joke .

 

[osho67]

First of all I never asked for your strategy, I never said you used stops of 200-300 points, I asked if this was typical, if you feel it is not, what are the typical stoplosses you set for yourself, 100 points ?

I was only asking a generalised queston, I wanted to understand why PT was easier than DT, so I did as you suggested and looked at longer time frames, on first inspection if did look easier, it seemed to me you just needed a trend following indicator, which got me thinking, perhaps incorrectly, that all you needed was to get in on a trend and hold, perhaps using a different exit strategy, as someone else mentioned it seemed you could just observe support and resistance levels, write these in a notebook, and just trade of those, if the assumption is wrong that you can just use a basic almost mechanical approach then explain why.

200-300 points stoploss means you are a gambler? But why is it that when I had a look at the Advfn cash chart for Dow, I could not spot a single trade that would have caused me to be stopped out assuming I used a trend following indicator, maybe an MA, ? I Checked the high and low of the daily range, did not assume I would pick a top or bottom, assumed the close price of the previous day for entry etc , so what am I not spotting?
The basic point I'm making though is it seems all you need is a basic trend following idea, of which there are plenty described

"No one is going to divulge private profit strategies on the net . The idea that you can pick up 1 or 2 freebies on the net and then make money is a joke ."

ok, that's good, it is good I didn't actually ask for that then, isn't it

 

[osho67]

Who is WCM, is there a link to his posts ?

 

[dick_dastardly]

I Checked the high and low of the daily range, did not assume I would pick a top or bottom, assumed the close price of the previous day for entry etc , so what am I not spotting?

I have noticed that with ADVFN daily chart the range can be skewed to the open of the previous day ( which is often incorrect ), has anyone else noticed this ?.

osho,

have you confirmed the range on the daily chart on ADVFN using intra day data ?

dd

 

[osho67]

I don't have long term data for intraday charts, however, I have intraday data for a couple of days only, so I will need to keep checking against Advfn,

For Friday 18th

Intraday data IB, symbol INDU
open: 10766
high:10804
low:10697
close:10764


Advfn

open:10719
high:10796
low: 10677
close:10766

Mostly in line, except the Open, this is what you mean?

 

[osho67]

Thanks for your input, don't expect you to answer everything, but perhaps you can advise on stoplosses, what is the typical sort of stoploss you think is acceptable?
Also, who is WCM? Are there some posts that I can read?