Where will we go after the Feds cut rates?

War in Iraq has absolutely nothing - NOTHING at all to do with 9/11. That was a neo-con plan. Pure Whitehouse policy decision. I'm always outraged when I hear about the links.

You're making a link that I'm not even hinting at. I wasn't linking the two at all. Bush may still have found a way to create a conflict in Iraq and we could be in the exact same position today. I do tend to think he had a fixation. My point was that 9/11 was a shock that lengthened the time to recovery for the economy at that point.

That's in totally different league with share valuations rather than fundamentals. You talk about level playing field.

No, it's not. Valuation IS fundamentals and vice versa. In the tech bubble it was the assets of company shares which were over-valued. This time around it was the assets of housing that got over-valued. In both cases, we have seen the inevitable outcome.
 
You're making a link that I'm not even hinting at. I wasn't linking the two at all. Bush may still have found a way to create a conflict in Iraq and we could be in the exact same position today. I do tend to think he had a fixation. My point was that 9/11 was a shock that lengthened the time to recovery for the economy at that point.

What has 9/11 got to do with the real economy? The recovery was pretty swift and impact ineffectual. If anything the airlines and tourism may have suffered but many other industries benefited.

Ok you may have not mentioned the war but that is exactly where the Bush admin took it. Wrongly so. As for the liquidity and economy, my point is $700bn is a big whack down the drain. How can you not see tax cuts and extra spending was a deliberate policy coupled with low rates for an over extended period. I'm saying it. I think we've been here before.


No, it's not. Valuation IS fundamentals and vice versa. In the tech bubble it was the assets of company shares which were over-valued. This time around it was the assets of housing that got over-valued. In both cases, we have seen the inevitable outcome.

This time round it is very different. You have inflationary pressures by excess liquidity, rising commodity and fuel prices coupled with greeedy financial institutions lending excess money to punters who could ill afford property.

I don't recall money being lent to stock market speculators.
 
What has 9/11 got to do with the real economy? The recovery was pretty swift and impact ineffectual. If anything the airlines and tourism may have suffered but many other industries benefited.

Since the markets didn't bottom until about 13 months after 9/11, which suggests the economy didn't bottom until some time after that, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it at least delayed the recovery. If nothing else, it scared a whole lot of people and scared people are less prone to spend or invest.

Ok you may have not mentioned the war but that is exactly where the Bush admin took it. Wrongly so. As for the liquidity and economy, my point is $700bn is a big whack down the drain. How can you not see tax cuts and extra spending was a deliberate policy coupled with low rates for an over extended period. I'm saying it. I think we've been here before.

I won't address the rightness or wrongness of the war as it's something we can't do a thing about and is a topic that just leads to needless conflict between folks who are better off trying to figure out a path forward. I did find it quite interesting, though, that the leading Democrats all refused to commit themselves to getting all the troops out by the next election, despite all of them loudly calling for the troops to come home.

As for the rest of it, at what point did I suggest increased spending, lower taxes, and lower rates were not deliberate? Of course they were - though Congress is responsible for the first two, and the Fed for the last part, so theoretically they were seperate decisions. Although that said, certain expenditures are pre-programmed (so to speak) in increase annually, so I supposed those weren't deliberately increased.

This time round it is very different. You have inflationary pressures by excess liquidity, rising commodity and fuel prices coupled with greeedy financial institutions lending excess money to punters who could ill afford property.

I don't recall money being lent to stock market speculators.

It's always different, except that it isn't. I don't have commodity charts on this machine that go back far enough to check on prices, but I do recall the talk about tight labor markets and overheated economy growth leading to inflation. Whether your or I subscribe to that particular point of view doesn't really matter because an awful lot of people do and it plays out in the markets and the economy through inflation expecations.

On the lending part, you're kidding, right?

Day traders can leverage their stock trades up to something like 4:1 (stock day traders correct me if I'm wrong on that figure). Futures traders are employing upwards of 50:1 leverage, and in the case of futures they can quickly use their equity gains to open new positions, again at up to 50:1 leverage, without even closing the first one. Just like a home equity loan, only much, much quicker in terms of turn around time.

Financial institutions are equally as happy to provide leverage to market punters who can't afford to take big losses in the markets.

Derivatives exaserbated the 1987 crash, just like they exaserbated the recent MBS and sub-prime related crisis, just like they exaserbate every financial hiccup because they allow folks to get overleveraged.
 
Since the markets didn't bottom until about 13 months after 9/11, which suggests the economy didn't bottom until some time after that, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it at least delayed the recovery. If nothing else, it scared a whole lot of people and scared people are less prone to spend or invest.

I think you'll find that 13 month lag more to do with the war then the 9/11. Market was rock bottom around March as war started and quickly rallied after the fall of Saddam's reign and Weapons of Mass Lies were discovered.

I won't address the rightness or wrongness of the war as it's something we can't do a thing about and is a topic that just leads to needless conflict between folks who are better off trying to figure out a path forward. I did find it quite interesting, though, that the leading Democrats all refused to commit themselves to getting all the troops out by the next election, despite all of them loudly calling for the troops to come home.

I'm more interested in the right and wrongs of tax cuts, health cuts and pension cuts and expenditure on war - $700bn. Don't you think you should take a view, Mr Independent? How about it's impact on the economy or millions of lives. Not asking you to donate blood or anything. Hold a view that's all. It all comes pretty close back to me joy riding in the London Underground on a daily basis. I suppose I'm getting personal now...

As for the rest of it, at what point did I suggest increased spending, lower taxes, and lower rates were not deliberate? Of course they were - though Congress is responsible for the first two, and the Fed for the last part, so theoretically they were seperate decisions. Although that said, certain expenditures are pre-programmed (so to speak) in increase annually, so I supposed those weren't deliberately increased.



It's always different, except that it isn't. I don't have commodity charts on this machine that go back far enough to check on prices, but I do recall the talk about tight labor markets and overheated economy growth leading to inflation. Whether your or I subscribe to that particular point of view doesn't really matter because an awful lot of people do and it plays out in the markets and the economy through inflation expecations.

On the lending part, you're kidding, right?

Day traders can leverage their stock trades up to something like 4:1 (stock day traders correct me if I'm wrong on that figure). Futures traders are employing upwards of 50:1 leverage, and in the case of futures they can quickly use their equity gains to open new positions, again at up to 50:1 leverage, without even closing the first one. Just like a home equity loan, only much, much quicker in terms of turn around time.

Financial institutions are equally as happy to provide leverage to market punters who can't afford to take big losses in the markets.

Derivatives exaserbated the 1987 crash, just like they exaserbated the recent MBS and sub-prime related crisis, just like they exaserbate every financial hiccup because they allow folks to get overleveraged.

It's important to understand those subtle differences like the many facets of a diamond. I do think you are desperately trying to push the boat out with your derivatives arguement. Derivatives didn't cause the crash. I thought a slight indication of a rise in rates by Bundesbank in retailation to comments by the Fed what kicked 1987 off. But that's just my opinion. Although I was initialy commenting on the dot com bubble. I'll leave it at that and thanking you for as always and interesting exchange.

Regards and goodnight to all...
 
It's important to understand those subtle differences like the many facets of a diamond. I do think you are desperately trying to push the boat out with your derivatives arguement. Derivatives didn't cause the crash. I thought a slight indication of a rise in rates by Bundesbank in retailation to comments by the Fed what kicked 1987 off.

You highlighted the key word in my comment - exacerbate. I didn't say derivatives caused any of the crashes, declines, squeezes, crunches, etc. They don't actually cause these things. They just amplify the effects.

But that's just my opinion. Although I was initialy commenting on the dot com bubble. I'll leave it at that and thanking you for as always and interesting exchange.

I was including the dot.com bubble in there. I just specifically mentioned 1987 because it was well established that portfolio insurance - which involved index futures - was significantly contributory to the volatility. It's the irony of derivatives. They are meant to be ways to reduce risk and volatility, but always seem to end up adding to it.

Too tired to think about the rest of it. Have to come back to it later.:eek:
 
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