Article Trading Plan Template

Jan 16, 2006
2
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Nairobi
#21
Tim, I have gone through the plan and it's a very good document the length notwithstanding. Like very many articles talk about our psyche/emotions et al., I have found it difficult to trade when it's actual money on the line. Silly mistakes have come up quite often while they weren't present in the demo, clearly an indication that something needs to be done on my part. Keep up the good work.
 
Mar 25, 2005
11
0
11
Adelaide.
#22
tech/a said:
I personally cant fault the theory.Im where Tim would like to be,and can say that the adaptation of all rules(certaintly in my case) has lead to profit consistantly trading my style (Position trading stocks) over the last 3 yrs.I'm not a fulltime trader and dont wish or have to be.

Tim I have a question.With faultless theory why then are you not profitable?What are the reasons do you think?

Finally something to offer those here.(As Tim asked for some examples in the artical he wrote---(its suprising who maybe reading!)).
My trading methodology is available free to the public and has been/is being traded live(The ASX-------BT Bankers trust Margin list of stocks.) on an Australian Forum---Reefcap.----and is nicely profitable--- well I think it is!
The host is currently undertaking an extensive forum upgrade and will be off line for around 2 weeks I believe.When back I will direct all to the links showing the method---and the results.
Really all of your theory in living practice------well for 3 yrs anyway!
The initial $30,000 starting capital is around $170,000,as of last friday

The method was designed using Metastock and Tradesim and is a long term portfolio based long method.While I have been in the market for the last 3 yrs there are times (Being a long method) that my method wont be---but not yet!.

My apologies that I cannot direct you to the site yet.

Hello.
Been a while since I visited this site back in March.
Now Janurary and the method mentioned above now has a capital holding of $265,000 + $60000 bank.
We developed it now nearly 4 yrs ago and has been trading live for the full time.
Everything is disclosed and there are 100's of pages of discussion on the site.

Here is the link http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=74

Its free not selling anything,its a longterm mechanical share trading method.
The original $30000 in starting capital is now $250,000 after paying back the margin lender his $70k

For those looking at a simple way to trade taking minutes a day and your not glued to the screen then this maybe for you.
All formulas and test results as well as weekly updates of all trading shown.

Hope it is of help.
tech
 
#23
Tomerep said:
I have a question, by not exposing more than 5% of your account you mean that if I have a 100k$ account I can have like 5 positions of 1k$ each? that wouldnt move the account anywhere.. I'm serious I dont know what you mean, I've read "come into my trading room" and its says there the same thing, not exposing your account to more than 6%(almost the same), did I get it wrong or do people earn money by only having 6% total of their account exposed(which means that even if they have an imaginary 100% profit of that 6%, their account move only 6% a month).... so how come they get 20% a month avg? thanks for any further answer :)
Because, as your stocks gain or get stopped out, your exposure frees up. Say your stock movse up significantly so you can move your stop to your entry price. Then if you get stopped out you lose only commission. So you have effectively no exposure, which means you can trade another lot. Dr. Elder's 2%/6% rule allows for this:

3 positions, risking 2% of portfolio each = initial exposure of 6%. As the first position moves into a gain, say... 10% gain, and you lock in profits at say 8% with a stop, you will have free (and infact decreased exposure) so that way you can put out another position. So now you have 4 positions, 1 with a locked in gain and 3 with 2% risk = 6% exposure etc. Anyway, the idea is, as your stuff moves up, you have more positions, but if you're losing, you trade less.

Good theory, in my experience when markets are moving sometimes its a necessary evil to be a little overexposed. But always set your stops and know how much exactly you are exposed, so if you get stopped out of all trades you'll know how much you lose, before you plant your trade.

Anway back on topic -- template is a great start. Alot of ppl don't think about this stuff :) I sure didn't when I started...
 
Jan 10, 2006
4
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L'Aquila, Abruzzo
#24
great document 4 all traders

TIm,
Is a great document and it will provide invaluable to myself, and many other traders. I have been reading a lot of different articles in the last couple of weeks and rate this as the best and most important "trading edge" that any trader who is or isn't trading could use.
Congrats, and to those whose source you have used.

Ten out of ten
:cheesy:

Would recommend one thing though....

As other posts on this board mention, it is quite long. The writing style is great, and keeps the reader interested, but for a beginner like myself there are many questions which I find difficult to answer, and some which I would rather not even think about :eek:

From this point of view is there any possibilty of a more concise version, or a version for novice or newbie dealers. Maybe posting some suggestions to some of the more difficult questions might help. I have been searching for a lot of answers to some simple questions, and have found these hard to find on this site, either because some of the basic guides are getting a bit out of date or some of the information posted is too advanced, or reliant on a single review (ie knowledge labs).......
A couple of basic questions which I am still struggling with and the plan has thrown up are

Which is the best data feed to use for US position and day trading?
Which is the best live charting package to use, also including backtesting, measuring and analysing my trades?
Are there any mentor/ news/ info sites which are worth subscribing to?
Am going to buy the JJMurphy book, can anyone recommend good literature to start reading, or viewing?

Will try to post my full answers when finished, more holes than a swiss cheese at the minute, but am working on it. Has anyone else posted their answers yet,couldn't find any?

My thinking is that any posts with people's answers will really help any newbies or even more experienced dealers.

Many thanks looking forwards to the infinity pool in Andulucia, although need to get the Miles Davies cd first to listen to when I'm there. "nice""great""

Thanks

Navalese
 
Likes: wasp
Mar 25, 2005
11
0
11
Adelaide.
#25
I'm interested in the way this thread is.

Great detail and even papers on a "Trading Template".
Developing one is fine but one question.

How do you know that once developed and placed into practice it will be profitable?
Worse still having traded it for a few weeks/months and then finding its not profitable.

I'm not seeing any discussion on WHAT makes a Trading Plan profitable.

Unless you know WHAT there is little cahnce in answering WHY and HOW a Trading Template should be designed.

If anyone had one that was longterm consistantly profitable these questions would be answered and discussion would be less on the "mechanics" of a template and more on the OUTCOME.

There are only 3 ways to increase profitability anyone hazzard a guess?

Tims work is excellent but I'm sure I can put my finger on why he is yet to have consistant profit.
 
Last edited:
Aug 10, 2004
702
14
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Dark County
#26
tech/a said:
I'm interested in the way this thread is.

Great detail and even papers on a "Trading Template".
Developing one is fine but one question.

How do you know that once developed and placed into practice it will be profitable?
Worse still having traded it for a few weeks/months and then finding its not profitable.

I'm not seeing any discussion on WHAT makes a Trading Plan profitable.

Unless you know WHAT there is little cahnce in answering WHY and HOW a Trading Template should be designed.

If anyone had one that was longterm consistantly profitable these questions would be answered and discussion would be less on the "mechanics" of a template and more on the OUTCOME.

There are only 3 ways to increase profitability anyone hazzard a guess?

Tims work is excellent but I'm sure I can put my finger on why he is yet to have consistant profit.
The template asks you to define your setups - the reasons you enter, and exit, and to state the risk/reward and sharpe ratio for each of these. I don't see how you can state the r/r or sharpe ratio if you haven't defined a setup (including back and forward testing in real time).

If your real trading outcome differs from your forward testing, then it's likely that your setup definitions are inadequate (you don't recognize them in real time), or you are not following your plan(because you don't really believe it).

I suspect there is a little bit of a catch-22 involved. People who can sit down and knock out a trading plan may already be successful and probably don't need to do it. Those of us who are still working on it are missing pieces of knowlege that has become second nature to those who are consistently successful.

For me, the value of the template continues to be it's ability to point out the gaps in my knowlege.

JO
 
#27
If you were starting a business, I fear if you have no _written_ business plan. Not only would you fail to raise capital, but chances are your business would fail. Trading is the same thing. A plan defines the way you handle your trading. What you do in certain situations, how you go about daily, monthly, operations. Setting goals. You don't necessarily have to have a plan to do all of these things, but having a reference like this will help you spot and avoid potential problems before you experience them.

JumpOff said:
For me, the value of the template continues to be it's ability to point out the gaps in my knowlege.

JO
Exactly. Having a plan does not necessarily mean you will succeed. However, I would venture to say that your chances of success WITH a plan such as the one Tim made would be better than if you didn't have a plan.

Not only does this plan force you to think about things you might otherwise not think of until you experience a long drawdown (what will you do in the event that you experience drawdown? How much do you ACTUALLY plan on risking per trade? How much exposure will your portfolio have?, etc) Like mentioned above, most seasoned traders have at one point or another thought of all of the questions and come up with answers for those in the plan, but for those who are new to this or who are looking for some guidance this is a great reference. 10/10 in my book.
 
Mar 25, 2005
11
0
11
Adelaide.
#28
Having a plan does not necessarily mean you will succeed. However, I would venture to say that your chances of success WITH a plan such as the one Tim made would be better than if you didn't have a plan
Part "A" Very true.
Part "B" I disagree strongly an untested Plan has no more chance of success than no plan.

There is an important Missing Link.

Doesnt it then make sence that before you trade any plan you make every effort to test that that plan will be profitable.In otherwords you backtest it so that you can define constituents like.

(1) Initial Drawdown
(2) Maximum run of losses.
(3) Best stop loss positioning.
(4) Parcel size allocating relative to Capital.
(5) Expectancy of return on every $$ invested.
(6) Reward to Risk Ratio (This cannot possibly be defined without rigorous testing )It is not sufficient to have a setup which if it plays out would have a positive result! as Tim explains.
(7) Peak to Valley Drawdown.
(8) % Profit

There are many other "Numbers" however the above will determine consistant profitability.And Risk to Ruin,a statistic no one should trade without!
To be as well placed as possible your "Plan" should be Montecarlo tested.
Simply this is like giving 10000 people your trading plan and your initial capital and asking them to go off and trade your plan,then report back with detailed results in X Years.

Yes you need a testing capability and these days we have serious testing software available at very reasonable pricing.
Tradestation (Best for Futures)
Amibroker
Metastock/Tradesim combination (I use this)
Wealthlab
To name a few.

I'm not berating nor deminishing the fantastic effort and the enormous amount of time Tim has devoted to his work,its one of the best I have seen.
However as Tim says he is still to find a longterm consistantly profitable way to trade.
I'm suggesting that this is likely to be the missing link! (The Numbers)

With them you have a blueprints of parameters of success,your plan maps the
path and your Numbers tell you if your on the CORRECT path.
If your tested numbers tell you your longest string of losses in a row is 6 and you now have 10 even while your trading your plan,then----?
If your initial drawdown was 8% over 10000 tests and its now 12%---then?

Anyone can trade a number of winners but very few can trade consistantly profitably and Consistancy is where confidence and longterm profitability lie.

Ponder this.
To launch a shuttle you have a "Plan"
To stop the Launch or diagnose in flight problems you ahave a "Blueprint" of what is expected,anything out of this "expectancy" and alarms go off.If your not quick enough --disaster.
No blueprint---nothing to correlate to for an alarm.

So I'll just add another dimension to Tim's already fantastic effort.

"The Numbers Blueprint".

The missing link.
 

charliechan

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2005
1,009
120
73
UK
#29
tech/a said:
I'm interested in the way this thread is.

Great detail and even papers on a "Trading Template".
Developing one is fine but one question.

How do you know that once developed and placed into practice it will be profitable?
Worse still having traded it for a few weeks/months and then finding its not profitable.

I'm not seeing any discussion on WHAT makes a Trading Plan profitable.

Unless you know WHAT there is little cahnce in answering WHY and HOW a Trading Template should be designed.

If anyone had one that was longterm consistantly profitable these questions would be answered and discussion would be less on the "mechanics" of a template and more on the OUTCOME.

There are only 3 ways to increase profitability anyone hazzard a guess?

Tims work is excellent but I'm sure I can put my finger on why he is yet to have consistant profit.

there is a tight rope from you on 1 side of the grand canyon and the other. on the other side of the rope/canyon is a big pot of gold.

anyone can tell you how to walk across, some even tell you how to develop a plan on how to walk across.

yet few people can actually walk across. why?

keep planning. it wont help you find your guts though!!

if you dont want to walk across, you wont walk across - no matter how much you imagine how much better life will be on the other side. truth is, life isnt that different on the other side. your brain knows this, but you dont.


;)
 

charliechan

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2005
1,009
120
73
UK
#30
so....

why do you want to cross?

a plan could help, but if you dont have the real motivation and need, a plan wont help.

if you do have the motivation and need, a plan will help, but it isnt the determining factor.

dont slip on that rope!!
 

timsk

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2002
6,765
1,727
223
#31
dbphoenix said:
Yes, I have a well-structured plan and it helps my trading.
--Db
:LOL:
Good to see that you're still around dbp - you've been keeping a very low profile of late.

"As for Tim's work, he has yet, unfortunately, to open a journal." I'm sorry to disappoint on this front but, until I have a better idea of what I'm about and where I'm going trading wise, I fear that a journal would be counter productive. This is because it would lack two of the things that it is supposed to achieve: focus and direction.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

On a general note. . .
Thanks for the feedback one and all. While I'm a sucker for praise, I also welcome the constructive criticism, as this is the only way the template can be improved. However, when this will be, I really can't say. Perhaps when I'm casually, fearlessly, strolling across the tightrope - to borrow charliechan's delightfully visual analogy - will be an appropriate time to revise and update it. So folks, don't hold your breath!
Tim.
 

charliechan

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2005
1,009
120
73
UK
#33
Chicken Curry said:
What do you consider to be the most predominant determining factor Charlie ?

Is there one factor for you that stands out above all else ?
no, not 1, but quite a few things. i wont mention them all here, as the likely hood is that posts and threads get deleted often round here so i would only be wasting my time.

being able to pull the trigger would be 1 though - overcoming your bias and emotion - your opinion of what you think the market will do v what the plan says to do.

a poor plan well executed is more desirable than a great plan poorly executed. an old management/marketing saying with some truth (for once).

also, knowing when to go against the plan. rules are for breaking.

any plan or mechanical system focuses the attention to a particular condition which inturn switches off the awareness to other information the market is saying - where there could be more profit. perhaps this is the later stages of development

these 2 points contradict of course.

flexibility is key. know when to stick to your plan, but also when to change it. no plan works for ever.

does the trader know (planned) for when this is?

im not trying to say there is no place for a plan at all. there is. i m just saying it is one part of the issue.

we tend to go from developing comprehensive trading plans for the whole business, to daily plans for the markets we trade, then to no plan - just a set of guidelines we intuitively know and understand. they become part of us.

there is a lot of stuff on www.elitetrader.com about goal setting, plans etc.

dpb - there are no way near 50k members here. many of them are created by the owners to make the place look more active and bigger than it is - i am sure. this is probably done to increase advertising revenue. when we look at who is advertising here though v 'the other site', it becomes clear where the big names in the industry want their names to be seen.
 
Likes: wasp
Jan 10, 2006
4
1
13
45
L'Aquila, Abruzzo
#35
on the tightrope

Hi all,

Had my first decent day trading today. Am using a free charting program called Medved Quote tracker, seems OK for my needs at the moment is available on
http://www.quotetracker.com/
Have taken on everyones comments thanks.

Charliechan, thanks for the site, a post there led me to
http://www2.barchart.com
Another free site which seems pretty useful. Loads of different types of analysis of shares. (Think is only 4 US shares though )
Have used Tim's template for a good sound basis, and am working on filling my gaps in knowledge. Helped whilst on the tightrope.
Was good to live trade with charts, and items that I have read on this site started to make some sense at last.. :)
Still will be down overall though on all my trades so my monthly aim is to get back to square one. Have realised shares are not get rich quick unless you are willing 2 put in some time and work in... (think u r more likely 2 lose)


Navalese
 
Mar 14, 2003
1,827
122
73
www.frugi.co.uk
#36
Tim,

Forgive me if I speak bluntly and and at tedious length.

One trouble a person has when (s)he engages in the market is the boundless abstraction it presents. I'm not referring to the "random" vagaries of price action, as that is a problem to tackle later - indeed delving into the "why" behind price action is probably the greatest joy trading can offer - but rather the fact that the trader must impose some boundaries and rules onto this great heaving mass that represents a small group of humans taking money from a larger one. This imposition of structure is the "boring" bit that we all have to go through first before we can be allowed to tackle the sublime crossword on a mentally even footing with the predators.

There are, literally, endless ways of dipping your beloved metatarsal into this foreboding soup. You can choose intensely to scalp size for an hour a day with the intuitive feel (which must be earned through hour upon hour of gruelling experience that eventually becomes stamped into the subconscious) of an air traffic controller who regularly juggles 15 angry 747s safely onto an icy runway, or you can perhaps trade with supreme objective aggression once a year with 10% of your capital, but only when everything perfectly lines up with a vast number of esoteric rigorously backtested criteria.

The point is that you have to decide where you fit in and that is, I think, the purpose of your excellent template. It is clear that you have grasped this perennial traders' problem. So don't worry so much about how the market works for the moment. The important thing is to decide on an approach first and then conduct your testing around it. The price action which is relevant to your chosen approach will then slowly reveal itself, because you will be comfortable, in your element and downright eager to watch, test, hypothesize and refine your plan till the heifers come home. Because you have chosen a comfortable niche the idea is you can remain objective and unlock all your ability to concentrate intensely, but also cooly, almost passively. This is simply not possible when you're flitting around from instrument to system to time frame. Set some boundaries, then focus freely. Of course there is a paradox here: how can you possibly decide where you fit in without trying a number of approaches? Well, that's where section 5 of your template comes in, as db mentions. He's not trying to be antagonistic or unhelpful, I think, rather saying that only you can answer the questions within it. Question yourself mercilessly based on previous experience. If you don't know the answers to some then at least choose some that don't seem to contradict the grain of your personality and knowledge. At least then you will have a framework in which you can progress to the interesting stuff, even if your initial choices prove ultimately to be a little off message.

For instance, how patient are you? Do you like making quick, repetitive decisions or do you like to sit back, diligently sift data and only strike when the iron is suitably hot for tackling linen? Do you want results in the next minute, the next hour, the next day or the next few months? Perhaps you can entertain a combination of two or more depending on what the market has presented.

Do you lust after a rollercoaster, something more sedate, or something in between?

e.g USD/JPY / a utility / the Dow

How much information can you process at once? Is price action alone enough (?Forex), or would you like some confirmation such as volume, breadth, tick, put/call, sectors, lev 2 etc.?

Do you want your product to be very or less vulnerable to news? (single stocks / forex / indices).

What about leverage, liquidity and popularity? Futures / fat stocks/ ickle stocks , for instance.

Anyway, I witter inaccurately, but I hope I'm making some sense. For each and every niche, there will be a corresponding and sensible way of managing your risk and maximising your reward.

Answering this sort of question, which I will patronisingly emphasize yet again as being DEEPLY PERSONAL, will narrow your chosen field of battle down considerably.

*take this with a pile of salt* - If you subscribe to the view that all price action is fractal (there is no such ting as noise) then in some ways it really doesn't matter which time frame you choose, as long as your money management is consistent with the R:R available. Have a look at a daily chart and pretend it is a one minute chart. They look much the same really. So, all you have to do is decide where you fit in and then scale your positions accordingly. e.g I can't handle waiting days with a 50 point stop, a 200 point floating target and a little 1 lot on the line. I'd rather find out much sooner what my fate is, so I'll trade 10 lots with a 5 point stop and a 20 point target, repeatedly. Ignoring scaling in/out etc. Gross oversimplification I know. but I hope my message is clear. You will know where you feel (un)comfortable.

Don't you just hate it when you know what you're trying to say but can't put it into words? :)

Anyway, I had a crack at the first question. Your template is demanding and seeks savage self-questioning, as it should do. I have probably done it a disservice by answering in a facile manner.

I want to be a trader because -

I value autonomy extremely highly
I am an atrocious team player, especially when it involves following company protocol with which I am uncomfortable
I am introspective and enjoy working abstract problems out by myself
I am an INTP personality
I relish a challenge, especially one that is palpably different from more conventional forms of work. Every day can be wildly different on the surface, yet the underyling forces are always the same. This is the sort of delicious paradox that sets my etiolated brain racing.
I don't require public recognition of my capabilities
I relish the notion of being paid purely to think and act decisively
It is absurdly easy to keep score of my performance in a concrete, binary way (P/L)
I admire the abstract, intangible nature of the business. Virtually no overheads, no physical raw materials or end product, no pollution, no employees, no hard sell, no dependence on demand for my product, no creative/artistic torture as, say, a writer or painter might suffer, no travel, no meetings etc.
There is immense scope for career and skill development

My primary objective is to provide an income sufficient to support myself, with the potential to increase this with no fixed boundaries as my skill increases (as opposed to an income that increases proportionally with the hours I work and/or my place on a conventional career ladder)

These objectives are important to me because I am not content with spending my life on a treadmill. I have little interest in creating or maintaining a certain status level in the eyes of others. I value freedom (although ... "Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." --Frank Herbert)

I believe I can achieve these objectives because I am diligent, disciplined, creative, intuitive, empathetic and capable of rigorous analytical thought. Okay I heinously flatter myself, but beware the self-limiting belief!

---

All well and good. But personal, rather boring/irrelevant to someone else and doesn't tell me how I should be positioning myself in the market. I won't bore you with my answers to the other subsections 5.x, especially as some are "after the fact", as it were. But fear not, answer the sections you haven't completed yourself, honestly, and I think you will be surprised at what you learn. Just dive in and do it. The next stage will become clearer only when you have sorted out your initial niche as it relates, for instance, to your personality and risk tolerance.

Then you can worry about what those nasty big boys with their special smart currency are up to. :)

Please tell me to insert a sock in any orifice you choose if all this wittering is as useless and patronising as I suspect it may be. :) As usual I have used 500 words where 50 would have sufficed. And thanks once again for your template - it has been a joy to revisit and thanks to it I have discovered more than the odd patch in need of darning in my methodology, that's for sure.

Start a journal please, Tim, whether I public or not (I'd recommend private myself as there will doubtless be vultures eager to piggyback your resultant edge/method if they can) and don't whatever you do feel that you need do so in a certain way. The questions are Waterford clear and the answers, at least to the observer, cannot be right or wrong.

I am as guilty as anyone of flitting from product to system to timeframe to approach in my career and I can state with no shame that after a cornucopia of losses things only turned around when I concentrated my efforts in a small, psychologically comfortable area and damn well stuck to it. The techniques naturally follow.

Best of luck mate.
 
Likes: wasp

nine

Well-known member
Sep 5, 2003
2,038
506
123
#37
frugi said:
Tim,

Forgive me if I speak bluntly and and at tedious length.
<< >>

Best of luck mate.
Good post Frugi. Worth reading and may explain part of why it takes people some years to find their niche and trade successfully.
 

sandpiper

Active member
Sep 30, 2003
458
53
38
#38
Great post frugi.

Now you see them, now you don't... Where's all the posts gone?

Anyway, reading this thread reminds me of one of Koppel & Abell's anecdotes regarding a woman who consulted a family counsellor regarding her marital problems.

"Do you have grounds?" asked the therapist. "Yes," replied the woman, "Two and a half acres." "No," he replied, "I mean, do you have a grudge?". "A grudge?" answered the woman. "No, but we have a carport." Growing more frustrated the counsellor shot back, "Does he beat you up?".

"Beat me up?" came the response, "Hell no! I'm up an hour earlier than that old dog every morning!".

"Mrs. Brown!!" exclaimed the consellor, "You are seeking help from me because of of a problem you are having with your husband. For God's sake what is his problem?".

The woman hesitated for a moment and then unloaded, "The man just doesn't know how to communicate!".


Anecdotal gibberish aside..... I agree with chuckiechans sentiments re: the tightrope. However, it is undoubtedly true that "state of mind, focus and personal belief systems" are the deciding factors in whether you hack it and not trading systems or methods. I believe that what Frugi and db are eluding to is that it isn't about developing a plan to teach you the mechanics of crossing the tight rope, it's about developing a plan that examines whether you can really be arsed and if you can, allows you to develop the confidence, beliefs and mind set necessary for crossing. Whether you then cross a tightrope or walk on hot coals or go white water rafting is irrelevant.

This post will self destruct in 5 minutes.....:).
 
Mar 14, 2003
1,827
122
73
www.frugi.co.uk
#39
:LOL: :LOL: I love jokes like that.

After my wordy flailing, the elegant, concise paragraph after the joke finally grabs the distinction by its proverbials. Certainly sums up what I was alluding to. I only wish I'd written it. Cheers sandpiper. :)
 

sandpiper

Active member
Sep 30, 2003
458
53
38
#40
dbphoenix said:
Since, on the whole, they amounted to clutter, I deleted them. Hope you weren't too discombobulated.

--Db
I was. But I'm sure I'll recover. Thought perhaps you'd absquatulated for some reason...;)