Trade to Win or Something Else?

there are those that are talented and those that are gifted
we are all talented in one way or another how we excel is dependent on many aspects that shape us as individuals
gifted are the exception rather than the norm
those should be categorised separately they tend to be born that way
 
andycan said:
there are those that are talented and those that are gifted
we are all talented in one way or another how we excel is dependent on many aspects that shape us as individuals
gifted are the exception rather than the norm
those should be categorised separately they tend to be born that way

Which is exactly what we're taught to believe and what the majority of people agree upon. Luckily, we have scientists investigating and exploring how "greatness" is achieved and the results are available for everybody who's ready to listen with an open mind. "Being available" isn't a prerequisite in trading only. Those who believe that some or gifted and others not, probably also presume that God helped them on the way (they should in fact take a look at Richard Dawkins' latest).

You make of it what you make of it.... nothing more nothing less.
If you have any proof to substantiate that some are "born that way", I'm sure the scientific community will be very interested :|
 
firewalker99 said:
Luckily, we have scientists investigating and exploring how "greatness" is achieved and the results are available for everybody who's ready to listen with an open mind. :|

That's a relief. :cheesy:
 
firewalker99

i dont presume anything and im not referring to the fact that you have to be gifted to be successful its just an observation that i have has first hand experience.
take this lad i know he is autistic and has an IQ of approximately 50 yet his ability to remember facts once he has been told is short of incredible he is actually being studied by the scientific community, they are dealing with a lad that has a low IQ but possesses a photographic memory, he can't string together intelligent thoughts yet he has a memory to die for
is he talented? not really and i would not say he was favoured by god but he has a unique gift a gift he was born with.
take my daughter from an early age she has been able to sing. nothing incredible there, she now trains under a distinguished instructor. before the instructor took her on i asked if she was talented enough, the instructor said to me she is not talented she is gifted, asking why she said your daughter has perfect pitch anyone who knows about music and singing (i dont) perfect pitch is extremely rare and especially for a child who has never had formal training she did not learn this it was something she was born with this is my point
with that said do you need to be gifted to be a great trader? absolutely not
do you need to be talented to be a great trader? i believe if you have the ability to dedicate the time needed to achieve a goal you eventually develop talent i hope thats a little clearer on my part.
 
barjon said:
Not sure i can offer any proof, firewalker, but all i can say is that your proposition that hard, well directed work is all that is necessary to become truly exceptional defies my sixty five years worth of life experience.

I have seen people who excel without putting much work into it and without (on the face of it) having any strong motivation or urge to succeed. I have seen people who do have a tremendous urge to succeed and who work extremely hard at it and yet never rise far above the pack.

From what I've experienced I'd have to subscribe to Neil's view.

jon

May I suggest we move the latest part of this thread to something more suitable (perhaps Psychology?) as it's getting quite off topic... I don't mind personally, but it doesn't seem to belong to T2W feedback anymore, does it...?

Anyway, yes many people are able to excel without putting in as much hard time as others but in most cases you will find that this has to do with "environmental" factors. And I never said that anybody who worked hard would achieve everything. You have to work hard in the right way obviously. Doing the same repetitive tasks without learning anything from it or without understanding how to improve you will stay stuck. Exactly why others keep improving and some don't.

I don't know in which context I should view your example, but perhaps you're refering to some people climbing the corporate ladder? There will obviously be some who climb faster than others, even without doing the work (this is again where the environment factor comes into play). But the real question here is, have they achieved greatness? While some may succeed in certain endeavours without trying very hard and getting "lucky" along the way, this doesn't mean they achieved anything.
 
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andycan said:
firewalker99

i dont presume anything and im not referring to the fact that you have to be gifted to be successful its just an observation that i have has first hand experience.
take this lad i know he is autistic and has an IQ of approximately 50 yet his ability to remember facts once he has been told is short of incredible he is actually being studied by the scientific community, they are dealing with a lad that has a low IQ but possesses a photographic memory, he can't string together intelligent thoughts yet he has a memory to die for
is he talented? not really and i would not say he was favoured by god but he has a unique gift a gift he was born with.
take my daughter from an early age she has been able to sing. nothing incredible there, she now trains under a distinguished instructor. before the instructor took her on i asked if she was talented enough, the instructor said to me she is not talented she is gifted, asking why she said your daughter has perfect pitch anyone who knows about music and singing (i dont) perfect pitch is extremely rare and especially for a child who has never had formal training she did not learn this it was something she was born with this is my point
with that said do you need to be gifted to be a great trader? absolutely not
do you need to be talented to be a great trader? i believe if you have the ability to dedicate the time needed to achieve a goal you eventually develop talent i hope thats a little clearer on my part.

Hi andycan,

The example you're giving is actually one of those that fall into the categories I described earlier: people who - unfortunately - were born with a be it physical or mental disability. I'm very aware that autistic people can exhibit some extraordinary skills which are difficult to explain. However: "Exactly why these children could do things that others cannot remains largely a matter for speculation, although it is noteworthy that in many documentated cases the individuals concerned spent many hours each day concentrating on their special interest. There is no direct evidence that the causes are innate, and if they do have an innate component its main direct effect may be to augment the individuals' obsessionality rather than their specific skills as such." (Howe, Michael J. A., & Davidson J. W., & Sloboda, J. A., 1998). How about the waitress who can remember 20 ordered drinks? Does she have an inborn memory skill? Perhaps, but much more likely she excels in recalling orders because of practice on the job.

As for your daughter. I am happy for you and for her she has this. I don't doubt she has indeed an extremely rare pitch. But does this contradict what I am saying? Not necessarily. Why is she training under an instructor? Why does she need further training? How much is she going to train, and how much is she willing to train to perfect her skills even more? My point being that no case has been encountered of anyone reaching the highest levels of achievement in music, sports, mathematics,... without devoting thousands of hours to serious deliberate training. Some suggested that interest in music may be the marks of innate musical potential, but a questionnaire found that they failed as predictors for musical competence on a later age. Small differences in the amount of attention infants give to different kinds of stimuli most likely leads to an increasingly different response and consequent action in comparison to other infants. On a later age these differences may be much more pronounced.

As for your statement "i believe if you have the ability to dedicate the time needed to achieve a goal you eventually develop talent i hope thats a little clearer on my part." that subscribes to what I am saying only I'm not using the word "talent" as such.

I'm sure others might join in and give other anecdotic examples from people who've achieved something amazing and seem to excel in certain areas without having to do anything. The reasons are very clear: it's more interesting and pleasing to the crowd when they have someone to admire for his or her "unique" talent or "gift from above" then to admire someone just because he or she has put in years of training and hard painstaking work. The crowd loves idols who are out of reach. But once you start to rationalize you realize they are no different than each of us.
 
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Hey firewalker99

it appears we agree except on the definition of a gift
you believe its a process of development i believe its something unique people are born with
lets agree to disagree
 
andycan said:
Hey firewalker99

it appears we agree except on the definition of a gift
you believe its a process of development i believe its something unique people are born with
lets agree to disagree

Okay, I can live with that :D
 
I have been away for some time, but I do want to reply carefully to you (and respectfully too), firewalker99.

Let me give my first impression of you: you are one of those people who I would classify in the "being a duped optimist" category. Let me calrify that clearly. What you have said about scientist doing all this research to prove this and that is meaningless to me - it's superflously extraneously pointless even. It makes for good copy for newspapers like the Daily Mail to include so people can read it and feel good that they too have a chance. This kind of "crap" is everywhere, and it's not just in the area concerning aquisition of wealth/status/power.

Let me take the area of self help, particularly relationships, where women's magazines are full of such superflous crap about making the most of your life/how to meet the perfect man etc. . . In that area I would fit you in the camp that believes anyone can get anyone to fall in love with them if they know how to act/behave properly, and it has nothing to do with looks. We are entering a grey area here, but I think we can all agree - I hope we can anyway - as mature adults that we are very selective as individuals when it comes to who we are attracted to and who we are not. I am not saying it's all about looks, nor all about personality, but there are people who - no matter what their personality - you are just not attracted to, and vice versa and every other combination of factors and effects in between. What I am saying is that there is a sexual selection process happening. It may be utterly brutal but it is happening. In this area you would be the kind of guy who would expand the theory that it's just to do with confidence/knowing what to say/wearing the right clothes/create the right demeanour of an alpha male and all that crap etc, etc, . . . whereas me and socrates would be saying that you can't create attraction, it's either there or it isn't. We would be saying that you can't get such and such a girl because the brutal fact of the matter is that she's not interested and it's her decision, in the same way if someone showed an interest in you who you are not interested in it would make you feel sick (this happened to me by the way, I did not know the person in question but physically she was not my type and hence I was not interested).

Now lets go back to the point:

Why doesn't he has it? I don't know much about tennis, but I do know about Formula 1. Why are champions like Schumacher and Senna a class of their own? Because they are fanatics. They work like mad, train like mad, drive hundreds of test laps more than others and got started very early in their life (driving karts on the age of 4 or 5). Every other driver in the field admitted that Michael Schumacher worked extremely hard in every aspect of his career, not only on the track but also off the track. Again, hard work seems to be the key here!

if it was all just hard work then anyone can do it, provided that they can take the pain. But I would hazard a guess that your way out of the argument is that there is a selection on individuals who have the genes to work hard/drive themselves forward/put in fanitical effort, then that would still have the "born with it" argument valid. This is not the case, because if it were true History would not say that "Schumacher and Senna" were great drivers, History would just say they were the "hardest working drivers" and that's why they kept on winning. Could anyone believe that? Don't think so.

There is a brutal maxim in History that says that "history is written by the winners". Let me clarify with an example. At the time of Einstein's success there were individuals who worked harder, if not more harder, than him, on their own ways of explaining the ether effect etc . . . . We do not hear of them simply because they were not the winners, their work/theories were minor landmarks in the progress of science, Einstein dominated. He had what it took - whatever it was, and I still doubt that science can every find that out in our present state of ignorance.

In your quote you ask why can't Tim Henman make it, and the answer is simply because he doesn't have it in him. He has it in him to make the grade, be in the top 5, but not enough to win a grand slam (unless all the other players die off, get food poisoning, injured etc. . ). I am sure he works just as hard, if not harder, than Sampras, but he just doesn't have it in him. I've seen him play again Carlos Moya (French Open Champion), and you can tell that Moya has that something extra, just that edge - and no amount of practice can make up for that.

Another example is the mathematician Karl Frederich Gauss, in his late teens he proved the quadratic reciprocity law. His professors at the university of Gottingen have also been trying to do it (so had Euler, Legendre etc . . ) and failed. And these guys had spent a good part of their lives trying to, so it wasn't for want of work or practice, and then comes this upstart boy that puts them to shame - think of the jealousy and aggression they must feel. Einstein in later life would also comment on other scientists aggressive jealousies towards him.

The point I am making about Newton working hard is that once you start doing something you like, and have serious talent for, you will find that you enjoy it and hence spending manhy hours on it is a pleasure and it gives you a buzz, you cease to see it was work more like a hobby, something you really want to do.

This is the first part, I will add a second part later on pending your reply.

I have to say now that I bear no ill to Socrates, and am very sorry about how I initially treated him. He actually does mean well, although most people don't take it that way.
 
temptrader said:
I have been away for some time, but I do want to reply carefully to you (and respectfully too), firewalker99.
Before I give you an answer, let me just say I respect your opinion even though it might be different than mine I don't condemn it. Everybody his the right to his or her opinion. Now just to clarify things a bit, I don't consider myself to be an optimist, but I do believe the human mind, body and soul are capable of much more than most people believe possible.

temptrader said:
Let me give my first impression of you: you are one of those people who I would classify in the "being a duped optimist" category. Let me clarify that clearly. What you have said about scientist doing all this research to prove this and that is meaningless to me - it's superfluously extraneously pointless even. It makes for good copy for newspapers like the Daily Mail to include so people can read it and feel good that they too have a chance. This kind of "crap" is everywhere, and it's not just in the area concerning acquisition of wealth/status/power.

Now for your argument referring to newspapers like the Daily Mail, I believe the sources I've quoted and the Cambridge book URL I gave, are certainly a whole different branch than what you would read in women's magazines, Sunday tabloids or gossip papers. If you've seen the movie An Inconvenient Truth then you know how popular magazines often dwell on subjects that are a hot topic in scientific circles, but more than 50% of the time they give bad or incomplete information. So before you call this "crap", I do suggest you check out the references I posted. Yes it was also mentioned in Fortune Magazine, but anyone who wants to read the scientific papers from (this is only one example) Professor of Psychology K.A. Ericsson can do so. He wrote many articles on the subject, you can find them on http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.hp.html.


temptrader said:
Let me take the area of self help, particularly relationships, where women's magazines are full of such superfluous crap about making the most of your life/how to meet the perfect man etc. . . In that area I would fit you in the camp that believes anyone can get anyone to fall in love with them if they know how to act/behave properly, and it has nothing to do with looks. We are entering a grey area here, but I think we can all agree - I hope we can anyway - as mature adults that we are very selective as individuals when it comes to who we are attracted to and who we are not. I am not saying it's all about looks, nor all about personality, but there are people who - no matter what their personality - you are just not attracted to, and vice versa and every other combination of factors and effects in between. What I am saying is that there is a sexual selection process happening. It may be utterly brutal but it is happening. In this area you would be the kind of guy who would expand the theory that it's just to do with confidence/knowing what to say/wearing the right clothes/create the right demeanour of an alpha male and all that crap etc, etc, . . . whereas me and socrates would be saying that you can't create attraction, it's either there or it isn't. We would be saying that you can't get such and such a girl because the brutal fact of the matter is that she's not interested and it's her decision, in the same way if someone showed an interest in you who you are not interested in it would make you feel sick (this happened to me by the way, I did not know the person in question but physically she was not my type and hence I was not interested).
I honestly think your comparing two completely different things (seems like a straw man argument to me). Although I can understand you give this "analogy" as an example, it's quite a different situation. Your looks is something that you cannot change (well... these days anything's possible), your performance and your "talent" on the other hand is.

temptrader said:
Now lets go back to the point:
if it was all just hard work then anyone can do it, provided that they can take the pain. But I would hazard a guess that your way out of the argument is that there is a selection on individuals who have the genes to work hard/drive themselves forward/put in fanatical effort, then that would still have the "born with it" argument valid. This is not the case, because if it were true History would not say that "Schumacher and Senna" were great drivers, History would just say they were the "hardest working drivers" and that's why they kept on winning. Could anyone believe that? Don't think so.

Very interesting paragraph. You should read the first sentence followed by the last two. This basically answers your argument. Obviously people will have trouble believing this, they rather object and believe in their idols which are born that way. How else would they be so good? How on earth could they score like that? What separates them from the majority? It must be that they are born like that. By arguing they achieved the top by hard work, would decrease their status as extraordinary and make them look... human! But throughout history, people have always sought and found others who they like to put up on a pedestal and adore. Senna believed he was unbeatable because at times he felt God was next to him. It doesn't matter what we believe or what I believe to be true, fact is if you believe strong enough in yourself you can become much more than you thought possible.

temptrader said:
There is a brutal maxim in History that says that "history is written by the winners". Let me clarify with an example. At the time of Einstein's success there were individuals who worked harder, if not more harder, than him, on their own ways of explaining the ether effect etc . . . . We do not hear of them simply because they were not the winners, their work/theories were minor landmarks in the progress of science, Einstein dominated. He had what it took - whatever it was, and I still doubt that science can every find that out in our present state of ignorance.

This is quite a different thing. I never said that those that worked the hardest would be heard the loudest... There might well be others out there who prefer to work behind the screens, who prefer to perform at the top level but don't want or need the public's recognition. Other factors like the environment and timeframe also come into play. Schumacher was the only world champion left in the field after Senna died. Of course there were other great scientists at the same time of Einstein, but their discoveries obviously didn't have the impact as those of Einstein. Does that mean the others weren't as "great"? That all depends on your definition. I certainly wouldn't say Einstein was flawless.

temptrader said:
In your quote you ask why can't Tim Henman make it, and the answer is simply because he doesn't have it in him. He has it in him to make the grade, be in the top 5, but not enough to win a grand slam (unless all the other players die off, get food poisoning, injured etc. . ). I am sure he works just as hard, if not harder, than Sampras, but he just doesn't have it in him. I've seen him play again Carlos Moya (French Open Champion), and you can tell that Moya has that something extra, just that edge - and no amount of practice can make up for that.

Yes some people have an edge on others because they have something others don't have: technique, power, stamina,... and once you discover what your opponent's edge is, you can work on improving your performance on that aspect and if do enough hard, painstaking and deliberate practice than there is a slight chance you might beat them. I never said Henman could be number 1 today even if he trained 20 hours a day... it's not only working hard, it's working hard the right way the makes the difference. And those who work with motivation and enjoying their work are much likely to improve much faster than others.

Another example is the mathematician Karl Frederich Gauss, in his late teens he proved the quadratic reciprocity law. His professors at the university of Gottingen have also been trying to do it (so had Euler, Legendre etc . . ) and failed. And these guys had spent a good part of their lives trying to, so it wasn't for want of work or practice, and then comes this upstart boy that puts them to shame - think of the jealousy and aggression they must feel. Einstein in later life would also comment on other scientists aggressive jealousies towards him.

temptrader said:
The point I am making about Newton working hard is that once you start doing something you like, and have serious talent for, you will find that you enjoy it and hence spending many hours on it is a pleasure and it gives you a buzz, you cease to see it was work more like a hobby, something you really want to do.

Exactly spot on. Once you no longer consider it as work, you start enjoying it. You're willing to spend 15 hours a day at it and even though you put much time and energy in it, it actually gives you energy back. This is what I'm saying. Each one of us can find something inside him that he or she likes doing most. But very few like it that much that they want to train it to perfection, because they don't think it would make any difference doing so. They believe they might be good, but not the best. They believe the best are born like that.

Edit: taking all this into account, doesn't mean I don't admire those great sportsmen, great scientists, musicians, chess players, etc... No, actually it makes me admire them even more.
 
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Very interesting paragraph. You should read the first sentence followed by the last two. This basically answers your argument. Obviously people will have trouble believing this, they rather object and believe in their idols which are born that way. How else would they be so good? How on earth could they score like that? What separates them from the majority? It must be that they are born like that. By arguing they achieved the top by hard work, would decrease their status as extraordinary and make them look... human! But throughout history, people have always sought and found others who they like to put up on a pedestal and adore. Senna believed he was unbeatable because at times he felt God was next to him. It doesn't matter what we believe or what I believe to be true, fact is if you believe strong enough in yourself you can become much more than you thought possible.

I don't object to anything that has proof in the proper context. However brain science is in its infancy and many people are getting away with dubious research, and no end of crap is produced. I would like to clarify further but I have neither the inclination nor the time.

I don't really have idols have such, but I would like to tell you the reason why I am replying: We could continue this pointless debate, but I am going to withdraw. I withdraw for the following reasons:

1) people like you can't seem to see, nor want to accept what's in front of you, or staring at you in the face
2) you have a lot of ego trying to continue this piontless discussion that really serves no purpose to you or your trading
3) I don't want to spend time arguing with someone over pointless things
4) most importantly all this is rather ego filled discussion and there is not place for it here

Like I said, hard work is a necessary condition, but it is not SUFFICIENT.

So let me state my position clearly:

1) you are free to believe whomever and whatever your wish. All of this new psychological research is a load of mumbo jumbo to me at present. Besides it doesn't help you in your trading, only to feed your ego.
2) there are proper traders readings this discussion and laughing: no doubt Socrates is one of them
3) these proper traders have nothing to prove and owe none of us a damn thing. When they try to help they get grief and in the end they give up. I miss Mr Marcus and Skimbleshanks.
4) most of us here are what Socrates calls "losers". Be honest about it. And most will not make in in trading. Not for want of trying mind, we simply just won't make it.
5) those that make a moderate success see it upon themselves to give out coaching, training and try to help others see things their way (a bit of ego cropping up here), why do you think there are so many rubbish books on trading. Van Tharp can't trade but it doesn't stop him from being a best selling author telling others how to.
6) those who are amazingly successful will know exactly how nasty and jealous people can become and protect themselves by keeping their mouths totally shut and not give anything away. They might want to give something away when they get older and realise that they don't have much time left to live
7) If you do make it I'm happy for you: trading, as you know, is so hard that I don't think anyone grudges another's success, unless of course they are ignorant of what it takes to get to be successful
8) I view this site as a library, to return to the original point, which means you can browse and read but not everything is valid, or it may just not be valid for you, and there is no guarantee of success of any kind

Lastly your reply to me characterises certain open debates and forums where people who don't really know a damn thing argue over something and decide by debate alone what the answer is. I am sure Francis Bacon would disapprove, and I take no pleasure in it
 
temptrader said:
I don't object to anything that has proof in the proper context. However brain science is in its infancy and many people are getting away with dubious research, and no end of crap is produced. I would like to clarify further but I have neither the inclination nor the time.

I don't really have idols have such, but I would like to tell you the reason why I am replying: We could continue this pointless debate, but I am going to withdraw. I withdraw for the following reasons:

1) people like you can't seem to see, nor want to accept what's in front of you, or staring at you in the face
2) you have a lot of ego trying to continue this pointless discussion that really serves no purpose to you or your trading
3) I don't want to spend time arguing with someone over pointless things
4) most importantly all this is rather ego filled discussion and there is not place for it here

First of all, yes this discussion doesn't have anything to do with trading and yes it doesn't contribute to my trading. Does it have to? No. Can we discuss other things than trading here? Yes. I even suggested this be moved to another thread. Furthermore I noticed an interesting discussion going on and I felt obliged to give THE opinion which goes around in scientific circles, not MY opinion per se.

So far I've seen from you:

"1) people like you can't seem to see, nor want to accept what's in front of you, or staring at you in the face"
-> I don't see how this is any relevant to the case

"2) you have a lot of ego trying to continue this pointless discussion that really serves no purpose to you or your trading"-> and yet again you're trying to put this down on my persona
-> this thread has diverged into something else than trading and you participated in that long before I answered to a post regarding "talent"

"3) I don't want to spend time arguing with someone over pointless things"-> contradiction: first you take the time to post a rather lengthy reply, next you state you don't have the time to argue with me

"4) most importantly all this is rather ego filled discussion and there is not place for it here"-> yet again you bring up ego, which is mentioned in point 2. If you feel that this is not the place you should never replied in the first place.

Feel free to comment whenever you get your facts straight. If you want to withdraw for these reasons than that's fine by me. You could also just have said you lacked a fundamental basis for arguing and you lack any substantiable evidence to the contrary.

I'm always open for a fair, rational discussion but not one is based on your personal thoughts, feelings and disbeliefs. Hinting that this has anything to do with ego for sure doesn't support your case. In fact, I have no reason whatsoever to try to convince you. I'm merely stating the facts, the findings, the research in opposition to what you are doing which is giving out personal arguments ("people like you...") who are totally irrelevant to this casus. You then try to provide counterarguments which are logical fallacies. Clearly an ignoratio elenchi.
 
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temptrader said:
So let me state my position clearly:

1) you are free to believe whomever and whatever your wish. All of this new psychological research is a load of mumbo jumbo to me at present. Besides it doesn't help you in your trading, only to feed your ego.

If you were to look up the studies (id est "do the work"), you would have found articles, studies and experiments going back early '80s which is over 25 years ago. But I don't suppose you've looked any further than surfing the web. A lot of other scientific research is much more recent than that. Fine if you want to call that mumbo jumbo. I have no problem with that, but I'd rather argue with someone who could substantiate why he thought that instead of an irrational argument based on one's beliefs.

temptrader said:
2) there are proper traders readings this discussion and laughing: no doubt Socrates is one of them.

Lol and perhaps God is watching and laughing to. Do you see me care? As I have no "ego" issues I don't care what others think about me. I do care what others think or have to say about ideas, concepts, thoughts,.... I have yet to see any reaction from those "proper traders". Now, do you need Socrates to back you up or do you have found solid evidence after all?

temptrader said:
3) these proper traders have nothing to prove and owe none of us a damn thing. When they try to help they get grief and in the end they give up. I miss Mr Marcus and Skimbleshanks.

Now what has that to do with this whole argument? Not in one post have I mentioned other "proper" traders. Please elaborate.

temptrader said:
4) most of us here are what Socrates calls "losers". Be honest about it. And most will not make in in trading. Not for want of trying mind, we simply just won't make it.

If you wish to call me a loser in trading than that's fine. I have nothing to prove to you and my struggle to try and trade is open and public in my journal. There's nothing for me to hide and nothing to be dishonest about. Again, we seem to be drifting further and further away from the discussion.

temptrader said:
Lastly your reply to me characterises certain open debates and forums where people who don't really know a damn thing argue over something and decide by debate alone what the answer is. I am sure Francis Bacon would disapprove, and I take no pleasure in it

Please find my replies, based on facts, not personal feelings/thoughts above.

Points 5, 6, 7 and 8 are totally unrelated to the talent myth discussion but at least they make more sense than anything else you've been telling.

temptrader said:
"Lastly your reply to me characterises certain open debates and forums where people who don't really know a damn thing argue over something and decide by debate alone what the answer is. I am sure Francis Bacon would disapprove, and I take no pleasure in it".

In fact, your reply and your comment about attraction by the other gender is a typical example of people who haven't studied the subject give comments out of the blue. I never said I knew the answer. I only provided substance for thought. Apparently for some that is very hard to digest.
 
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This is Mr.Marcus......:LOL:

This is Skim.....:LOL:

These are 8 other members who do not post and do not wish to be identified......:LOL:

These are two members who post but do not appear on this thread......:LOL:

And this is me.....:LOL: ....so there !
 
And what is more, nearly everything I write is for them to enjoy and for them to enjoy and giggle at the responses that what I post stimulates, LOL, and all of the responses, rude, aggresive, disrespectful, personal attacks etc., are to me like water on a duck's back and causes them to view all of it with dismay, and furthermore, as a consequence, all you are getting nowadays is a diet of drivel and endless circular ignorant arguments, as the best informed posters are up to date with all of this and ABSTAIN, so there, hahahahaha, funny !
 
your purpleness, I predicted exactly what your response would have been, and I only continued to post to see what reaction some posters would give.

You've suffered enough to get where you are, and I respect that, and I also understand that the situation has got to the point where people like you would rather tell us all to "f**k off", and you'd be quite right to do so since you do not need this grief from egotistical posters
 
I would like to add that I have nothing against firewalker99, and I wish him well, but he has unfortunately got the wrong end of the stick

Let me finish this, and this is my view (whether right or wrong, for Socrates' and co.'s amusement obviously), I'll try to put it in the best way I can:

To firewalker99,

Forget about my comments about talent, whether you are born with it or not, concentrate on what you are suppose to be doing: learning to trade. If you have what it takes, as Socrates so eloquently defines in a particular thread that escapes me, you WILL make it, regardless of what I say or think, or what Socrates and his band of merry men/women say or think. That's not to say you won't go through a lot of pain, doubt, financial difficulties etc . . . What Socrates and co. can add to this is to maybe set you on the right path and shorten your journey (if you have what it takes), but unfortunately that option is not available due to his comments above.

What I am trying to say is that trading is very much like getting into academia. There is no one stopping you and all the literature to do research is there out in the open, and if you have the right "mind" for it you will produce research for other people to notice you. Trading is the same, anyone can enter it (provided you have sufficient funds and equipment), but very few make it. But unlike most academic fields we have a lot of controversy and scam merchants, and the literature is definitely not out in the open - which makes your journey even worse.

I wish I can offer more, but I can't. And those that can offer more, are unfortunately not offering, so the journey is a little longer

Regards and Best Wishes

Temptrader
 
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