Top Step Trader?

[Qbgx]

I want to run a Promotion, or Contest that will claim to be for the purposes of trader education and recruitment. This will allow me to avoid any Crown or Local Regulations governing Promotions.

Compared to other Promotions, the unique things about this one would be the hefty entry fee, and the fact that the only prize would be the opportunity to participate in another Contest where I would hold forth the possibility of winning a portion of the money that The Contestant might earn from trading a live futures account funded by me.

In most Contests, the odds of winning are required to be disclosed. To get around this requirement, the second portion of my Contest will be administered by a secretive, tightly controlled, completely opaque, Private Company. There will be no disclosures of any actual monetary prizes awarded in this portion of the Promotion. One would think that the lack of any evidence of anyone ever having made any money in the second portion of the Contest might deter potential entrants, but I have reason to believe that this would not be the case.

Instead I would expect that people will be falling all over themselves to participate in my Contest, tracking their progress in elaborate Journals of Self Discovery that they will be eager to share with others. People will get so caught up proving their own worth in the Game of Skill, debating the parameters of my rules, keeping track of those who "win", and all the other minutiae, that they will not even realize that they are paying a high price to enter a Contest that does not have any prizes.

What do you think of this original idea? Might I be well advised to apply for a Patent?

 

[Qbgx]

Getting Funded vs Making a Living

Yet people pass combines and get funded all the time....

What exactly does "getting funded" mean? Is it like becoming a "Made Man"?

 

[TopstepTrader]

10 days trading to make 8%, with maximum daily drawdown of 2% and maximum drawdown from initial balance of 3%. Not easy.

Shakone- Trading is never easy. That being said, we are looking for traders not investors. This would be similar to going to a proprietary trading group. They do not ask you to make a percentage. The Combine rules we have are discipline rules that many traders should follow. The objective is to follow these rules AND profit. The profit target one needs to reach, for the smallest account we evaluate on, and to move to a funded account basically comes out to a daily trading average of $75. If this was your only income (which for most professional traders it is), then you would be generating around $20k a year. We all got into this business to make more than this, but this is a good example to show that we do not look at percentages. We look at trading as your opportunity to get started in this career as this being your main income at a certain point.

We have many traders we place with an equity partner. We average about 2-3 a week. We also are transparent with the talent we find and interview them in front of the community of listeners each week. I hope that clears it up a bit. Feel free to stop in and listen to our Squawk Radio broadcast when we interview the next trader moving to the funded level (usually every Tuesday and Thursday, and it is open to the public).

Thanks,

mp

 

[TopstepTrader]

Maybe some of the 'combines' won't get their deposits back if I understood t&cs correctly.
Together with $2995 for the traders development?

It would be good to know the success rate and also what percentage of deposits weren't refunded.

Zen archer- We show everyone person that gets their deposit back or rolls that opportunity over to start a new Combine if they achieved it. These traders are represented with a blue "C" badge in our squawk radio interactive chat rooms. You can ask them any question you like. We have many traders that consistently roll over as well.

Lastly, the rules for a refunded/rollover are to follow the rules only. This is basically don't hitting your loss limit or drawdown and making more than $1 in each product you chose to trade.

Let me know if you have any other questions on this. I would be more than happy to help.

Lastly, The College of Trader Development is the course I believe you mentioned above. This is NOT required, but we do recommend all traders get some type of formal solid education, where ever that may be. It is your best chance to get a strong understanding of patterns, strategies etc. Once you get educated you learn the most by doing and that is why we have the Trading Combine. Put these two together and you can get a trader properly educated and trained very quickly.

mp

 

[sonofcablemonster]

This would be similar to going to a proprietary trading group.

but is it similar to going to a prop trading group when you are billing round turns at $6. Prop groups in the UK will start you on $1.50 round turns on CME, 1.00 Euro round turns on Eurex. This would be for ANY volume sub 5000 round turns per month, above that you are looking at lower.

Top Step is what it is and I believe it has a place but comparing it to a prop firm isn't right in my book. The majority of prop traders make between $1 and $5 per round turn hence Top Step is nothing like trading for a prop firm.

GTTY

 

[TopstepTrader]

There are too many conditions attached to refund K. I can't see why should somebody who can meet all that conditions trade anything else apart from their own money - they can keep all the profit (unless they're desperate) and they won't lose deposit if they go a tiny bit over the limit etc.

Don't get me wrong - it may be a reasonable idea, especially if somebody's new to trading and prefer to pay for education rather than doing it themselves. Anyway I wouldn't trade their money unless they offered much more and different conditions.

Zen Archer- These conditions or what we call the rules to get a rollover/refund are simply:

While in the Trading Combine® to be considered for a funded trading account and/or a deposit refund or rollover, recruits must adhere to the following rules:

Ground Rules:

I will trade only the required number of days (10 or 20 days)*
I will always implement stops with an open position
I will only trade permitted products, during the permitted times

Fundamental Rules:

I will achieve an average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded
I will achieve an overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater
I will ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed my Daily Loss Limit
I will ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown (Account Balance High - Max Drawdown = Trailing Max Drawdown)

https://www.topsteptrader.com/combine_rules

Traders need to follow rules when trading. There is a reason 90% of traders fail in this business. Having rules such as these or following your own personal rules (you may customize our rules if you would like) can lead to instilling discipline and helping you understand if your trading plan is sound or not.

It is much cheaper to follow your plan and gain a real understanding of your good and bad habits in tradingwhile in the Combine before ever risking any of your own personal capital.

I have lost over 90K trying it on my own as I am sure others have their war stories as well. Having an environment where you can create, test or prove your strategy without risking your personal trading capital is what we want to offer traders.

mp

 

[OrderFlowDashPro]

Michael,
I think what people want to see is that your program actually produces profitable traders. Two or was it 3 years ago, you stated you were going to share some statistics of your top traders. What we'd like to see is that you have traders who have cleared (profit+withdraws or peak equity) say 30k, 50k, or 100k or more.

If you could show 1 trader who's hit peak of at least 500k (even if he lost it all), it would impress me more then all your "combine passes" marketing. Nobody cares that someone can pass a combine. We want to know what happens after they get funded. I don't want personal information-- just the number of traders who've hit various peak equity in the real money account. I think it is reasonable question as you promote your venture as a way for traders to trade for a living.

Thanks.

 

[Qbgx]

Dear Michael,

It would seem to me that lack of disclosure, verified by an outside party, regarding performance statistics of profitable "Funded Traders", is a red flag indicating the possibility that such traders do not exist.

As proud as I may be of my status as "Loyal Customer" or "Honored Citizen", these honorariums are no more indicative of anything than the title, "Funded Trader". But it sounds smashing.

Let's just fill in the blanks to see what we want to see after being presented with an appealing but vague overall picture that has a few little "missing pieces". I want to believe, don't you? Why ask too many questions when everyone seems to be enjoying their subscriptions? How about that cool Pro Football recruiting terminology and all those warm and wonderful Traders Helping Traders vibes? Why don't we just occupy ourselves parsing the rules of The Combine for the ten thousandth time, and everything else about this operation for that matter, except the IMPLIED central premise that motivates people to Pay To Play.

Never mind. I trust you.

Lance

 

[TopstepTrader]

What?

This is "Carrot and stick" meets "Thelma and Louise".

Yeah you can pay us a fee and we will consider you for backing. If you meet our (exhorbitant) requirements, on the grounds that if you throw enough sh1t, some of it will stick*, we'll end up backing some traders. Some of these traders might even be **** hot Laurie Inmans, and that's all good for us. Other s are just a case of:

a) lucky for them, and
b) unlucky for us

But we're likely to make alot of money just for charging a fee to let people try and fail to cover those losses. We'll probably have some kickback from a specified broker and other revenue streams too.

Right? Have I missed something?

* I think I saw something about a "combine" being 10 or 20 (not necessarily consecutive) days. Really? This tells you everything you might ever need to know. 20 days ffs.

Hakuna- We appreciate your comments. I wanted to share that the requirements can be fully customized by you if you choose to customize the rules and your objective. You would need to call and speak with us to propose the changes you want to make. The scout team will then be notified and approve the changes if they are within reason.

Our program is about holding traders accountable to their trading plan, rules, or what they say they can do. If you do this over and over again the trader WILL realize what to change and the trader does improve in their trading.

Trading is difficult and many many people lose their entire life savings or their lives for that matter getting caught chasing their losses. We want traders to be in an environment that still gives them that tension, that pressure, that you will always have as a trader, but without risking tens of thousands of dollars.

I learned the hard way after losing $90k when I first started trading. After that, I got with a prop firm that started all traders off on a sim with requirement/rules etc. This format allowed the cream to rises to the top and true talent supersedes all. It took me many many months (and this was after I had already been trading and losing for many years) to break bad habits and get myself on the right track. This was the real start of my trading career.

I hope that explains a bit about what we are building at TST. I would be happy to chat with you further.

Michael Patak
CEO

 

[TopstepTrader]

Well, if you say so. But that list of conditions makes me wonder how many people get their deposits back.

Dash more or less summed it up in his post above. This is not an outfit I would be willing to trust.

Leopard- Our community is very transparent. We allow guest each week to come in at no charge and hear who we are funding that week. We also allow anyone to chat and private message other in the community. I encourage you to check out out Squawk Radio broadcast. This will allow you to hear what is going on while also asking questions to me (I am on once a week and field any and all questions about the program and why we do what we do) as well as other traders both funded or in the Combine.

If you would like access, please contact [email protected]. I would be happy to discuss any questions or concerns openly.

mp

 

[TopstepTrader]

DionysusToast wrote
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
---
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you wrote there or if you think people are that stupid?

The "150K account" has a MAX DRAWDOWN of less then $5,000! The max DD for the 150K account is $4,500. But, they take approximately 50% of profit --while it varies around that value, it is a good approximate. So, you can pretty much reduce that in half, in other words you actually get the "risk" of $2500. You pay $400 to apply for the program which you lose if you aren't profitable or go over DD limits. So let's say you pass on the second time and failed the first, we can reduce the actual risk they are taking by $400, we get $2100. This is about the DAILY risk limit that a real prop provides.

So, you only need to risk around $2,000 to match the so called 150k program. TST doesn't let you hold overnight, so with day trading margins, your total account required is going to be around $5,000-- which is the minimum to open an account at most brokerages.

I challenged Michael Patak to prove he had any profitable traders 2 years ago. At that time, he slipped up and as much as admitted they didn't have any significantly profitable traders. Let me say, Mr. Patak had a good idea which was to gamify trading. I think its a good idea . The problem for me isn't even in the gamification. It is in the way they present themselves and their lack of confidence in their methods and that their deals are structured to be very bad for the trader -- as in TST win/trader lose.

A good measure of the model of TST isn't how many pass a combine, it is what the combine turns out to be worth. As such, the best measure is I think the peak equity of their top traders that they hit, which is the combination of withdraw+peak account equity. This is a generous measurement because many will give back all their profits and never see them.

OrderFlow- I appreciate your comments. I want to quickly make a point about taking $5k and opening a personal account.

Many traders fail. We have ALL heard this line many times. I know many brokerages and I also know that the average brokerage account opens with $10k and closes 6 months later. These numbers paint a clear picture that traders need to develop and get educated if they plan on growing their account without consistently having to replenishing their account every 6 months (give or take) to buy them more time to learn what they need to do to get better.

This is what the Trading Combine is about. Putting traders in a real-time market with real risk parameters and having them follow rules. Whether they are our rules or they customize these rules to fit their trading style. Trading is a performance based. We look to help keep these traders engaged and in the markets BUT without having their kids college fund or money they need on the line. Like any performance based business (let's focus on sports), you learn by doing. We want traders doing and trading every day. Like being in the batting cage or on the mound seeing many many pitches (aka. trade setups, etc). The more you see and the more you are engaged and deliberately practicing the better you will become.

If after 6 months you have failed (not followed your rules or ours, depending on the situation) on every 10day $50k Trading Combine that you entered this would cost you $1,140. Now compare this to the average broker account that opens with $10k and closes 6 months later. This is a saving of $8,860.

Now, after 6 months the trader from the Combine is better developed as they have been focused on learning and growing, they are better disciplined as they have rules, such as not hitting your loss limit or max drawdown that has instilled discipline as they have focused on follwoing these every trading day for those 6 months. They can then take the $8,860 and open their own personal account with any broker and feel better prepared, more dispclined and more likely to succeed.

If they did not fail and met the objective of the Combine then they get that successful Combine deposit back, they can hold on to that money they would use to open their own personal account, and they will be offered an opporutniyt to trade on our equity partners account. Having options is good. The Combine is merely a safe option to get yourself started or back into the markets safely.

Another point I want to make is, our program does not make promises of wild riches as that is not going to help a trader get from point A to B. Helping a trader if putting them in the market and letting the market be your greatest teacher. We have coaches and scouts that will review your trade reports from your prior Combine and provide feedback (if you request it).

Traders have bad habits ... lets find those bad habits and work on them. Traders have good habits... let's recognize those and use those as leverage. You figure this all out by being in the market. The Combine is our way of putting you in the market and seeing yourself as the trader you really are. Once you can see areas you need to work on then it is up to you to do something about it.

Lastly, we have many traders in the Combine and at the funded level. Those in the Combine are working to be better some are there for fun, some are there to become a professional and some are completely new to the markets. Those at the funded level are interviewed each time they go live and they all hang out in the chat room and Squawk Radio daily, so please feel free to stop by and ask how they are doing, if you choose. Traders that make Senior level are asked if they would like to be interviewed when they make Senior status, therefore most do not but I have added some links below of traders that were ok with being interviewed in front of our community.

--

-

-

mp

ps. sorry for the long post.

 

[Shakone]

TST, it's a good business idea, but I think you've missed some of the points from OrderFlowDashPro's post.

It's about integrity and what you present yourself as.

If your intention is to attract good traders, you would have some interview process (perhaps like the combine) that is free, you'd provide funding, supervision and training to those who passed, and you'd provide low transactional costs to make it advantageous for your traders to trade with you because you're interested in maximising trading profits and because you do plenty of volume and can get low rates.

If you're charging high commissions, you're interested in making money from commissions. Is it true that you charge around double the commission that a small individual retail trader can obtain? So your business makes money from commissions like a broker does and the trader suffers this in return for funding. It would be more honest to admit this rather than suggest you're about trading profits.

If you charge a combine fee, you're interested in getting enough money in from this so that it covers your risk. You'll likely gain more in combined combine fees than you'll allow a newly funded trader to lose because enough people will fail the combine. Which is very intelligent from your position, but it's about your risk being covered, not about having skin in the game or to only encourage serious traders or any of that stuff that I read on the site when this thread first began. Integrity.

You were asked about big size traders at your firm, and (videos aside) the majority of your response is about education and how a trader would be better off taking combines than opening a 10k account and trading for himself. Where is the proof that doing combines helps traders? Wouldn't you need to provide someone who has completed them and been highly succesful like OrderFlowDashPro asked for?

Are you an education business, a trading commissions business or a prop firm? Do you see the issue?

As I said, a good business idea, but might be better to be clearer about what you are.

 

[TopstepTrader]

TST, it's a good business idea, but I think you've missed some of the points from OrderFlowDashPro's post.

It's about integrity and what you present yourself as.

If your intention is to attract good traders, you would have some interview process (perhaps like the combine) that is free, you'd provide funding, supervision and training to those who passed, and you'd provide low transactional costs to make it advantageous for your traders to trade with you because you're interested in maximising trading profits and because you do plenty of volume and can get low rates.

If you're charging high commissions, you're interested in making money from commissions. Is it true that you charge around double the commission that a small individual retail trader can obtain? So your business makes money from commissions like a broker does and the trader suffers this in return for funding. It would be more honest to admit this rather than suggest you're about trading profits.

If you charge a combine fee, you're interested in getting enough money in from this so that it covers your risk. You'll likely gain more in combined combine fees than you'll allow a newly funded trader to lose because enough people will fail the combine. Which is very intelligent from your position, but it's about your risk being covered, not about having skin in the game or to only encourage serious traders or any of that stuff that I read on the site when this thread first began. Integrity.

You were asked about big size traders at your firm, and (videos aside) the majority of your response is about education and how a trader would be better off taking combines than opening a 10k account and trading for himself. Where is the proof that doing combines helps traders? Wouldn't you need to provide someone who has completed them and been highly succesful like OrderFlowDashPro asked for?

Are you an education business, a trading commissions business or a prop firm? Do you see the issue?

As I said, a good business idea, but might be better to be clearer about what you are.

Shakone- I see your point. Let me address some of these with you.

You mentioned that:
If your intention is to attract good traders, you would have some interview process (perhaps like the combine) that is free, you'd provide funding, supervision and training to those who passed, and you'd provide low transactional costs to make it advantageous for your traders to trade with you because you're interested in maximising trading profits and because you do plenty of volume and can get low rates.

mp:
The focus of the company is to develop and/or discover good traders. We provide many tools for traders to help them learn, perform better and put themselves in a position to get funded. The Trading Combine comes with trade reports, the ability to journal, access to a real-time squawk broadcast with breaking news, interactive chat room, a realtime date feed, a brief review of your Combine upon completion with a scout etc. These all have a cost. We are a business. When someone enters the Combine they place a 'deposit' which you receive back or rollover to a new Combine (95% rollover) if you follow the rules (you can customize these rules). We built this into the Combine to reward those that follow the rules.

You mentioned that:
If you're charging high commissions, you're interested in making money from commissions. Is it true that you charge around double the commission that a small individual retail trader can obtain? So your business makes money from commissions like a broker does and the trader suffers this in return for funding. It would be more honest to admit this rather than suggest you're about trading profits.

mp:
Commissions are what the clearing firms charge. TopstepTrader does not back the traders nor do they receive any income from commissions. TST places traders with an equity partner. Can the equity partner get commissions lower with the clearing firm? With more volume from the trader then yes a clearing firm would move on this cost. But TopstepTrader is not in control of that and we do NOT tell our traders in the Combine or the funded traders on our equity partners account to trade more. We actually encourage them to trade less as overtrading can destroy an account. Lastly, when a funded trader becomes a Senior (building profits up enough to move your trailing back drawdown to your initial starting balance) they build negotiating powers with their equity partner (the person backing them). If they happen to be a high volume trader the equity partner will work to get the commissions reduced with the clearing firm. Lastly, we are not a discount broker and we will not compete with their pricing of commissions. As a final note, the average volume of a trader in our Combine or at the funded level is 20/aside. Commissions are basically a mute point at TST and if they dig that deep into your p&L you need to step back and look at your R:R and trading style.

You mentioned that:
If you charge a combine fee, you're interested in getting enough money in from this so that it covers your risk. You'll likely gain more in combined combine fees than you'll allow a newly funded trader to lose because enough people will fail the combine. Which is very intelligent from your position, but it's about your risk being covered, not about having skin in the game or to only encourage serious traders or any of that stuff that I read on the site when this thread first began. Integrity.

mp:
I want to make a point that many people rollover and meet the rules. These rules are not terribly difficult. (https://www.topsteptrader.com/combine_rules) Show us you are disciplined is the underlying premise. I invite you to stop in our chat room sometime and you will notice all the BLUE "C" badges. These are all recruits in our program that received one Combine or every Combine they have been in at no charge (free). Yes, there are recruits that enter the Combine and break the rules, thus disqualifying them from rolling over or getting reviewed, while forfeiting their deposit. 97% of these traders say the Combine has helped them develop (from a survey sent out after a trader completed the Combine). I think we would all agree that this trader is much better suited working on his or her trading in a Combine type format than putting $5k-$10k in the market, unprepared, with no proven trading plan, showing no consistency, profitability or showing no discipline and going up against others that have all of this (ie. Professionals), just to see what happens. This happens every day and we are trying to be an options for aspiring traders to choose before jumping in the deepend and trading with the pros.


You mentioned:
You were asked about big size traders at your firm, and (videos aside) the majority of your response is about education and how a trader would be better off taking combines than opening a 10k account and trading for himself. Where is the proof that doing combines helps traders? Wouldn't you need to provide someone who has completed them and been highly succesful like OrderFlowDashPro asked for?

me:
Shakone, I invite you to our chat room and ask any recruit or funded trader if TST has helped them. I will let the community speak on my behalf for this question. Lastly, as mentioned in the prior email we do not make claims of wild riches as we are not teaching you strategy. We are placing you in the market to learn how to become a consistent profitable disciplined trader. If you are performing well and meet or exceed the Combine objective (you can customize these as mentioned prior) you receive another opportunity to continue showing you are a performer but this would be at the funded level.

You mentioned that:
Are you an education business, a trading commissions business or a prop firm? Do you see the issue?As I said, a good business idea, but might be better to be clearer about what you are.

mp:
Shakone, we are simply put, an opportunity for traders, but I don't want to short change this question so I'll format it like so; TopstepTrader (TST) is primarily a company that provides a live-simulated online trading environment as well as a collegiate-level education for anyone interested in seeking to learn, practice, or test their trading skills with the goal to have fun or become a skilled trader backed by real money, as a result of reaching objectives set forth in the TST environment. In addition, the environment provides a social media aspect that allows different traders of all demographics, backgrounds, and geographies to connect and learn from one another in the online community.

I appreciate the questions and hope I have addressed what I can without completely handing away our business plan.

mp

ps. My username is Nebraska in the chat room. Say hi is you stop in.

 

[Liquid validity]

Michael, can I ask a simple question?

What generates the most profit for TST:

1. Combine fees.
2. Profit splits.

Do you have any publicly available online accounts that
show this?

 

[Liquid validity]

Michael, can I ask a simple question?

What generates the most profit for TST:

1. Combine fees.
2. Profit splits.

Do you have any publicly available online accounts that
show this?

Our community is very transparent.

Bit odd, that you viewed this thread for 45 mins after I posted it,
then logged out without answering?

Its not intended to be a loaded question, its purely a question
of transparency
Surely as CEO you know the answer?

 

[DionysusToast]

DionysusToast wrote
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
---
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you wrote there or if you think people are that stupid?

No - but you are inexperienced.

Hence you don't really understand what prop shops do and how they work with new interns.

The "150K account" has a MAX DRAWDOWN of less then $5,000! The max DD for the 150K account is $4,500. But, they take approximately 50% of profit --while it varies around that value, it is a good approximate. So, you can pretty much reduce that in half, in other words you actually get the "risk" of $2500. You pay $400 to apply for the program which you lose if you aren't profitable or go over DD limits. So let's say you pass on the second time and failed the first, we can reduce the actual risk they are taking by $400, we get $2100. This is about the DAILY risk limit that a real prop provides.

You don't actually know how Topstep works do you - but let's put them aside for a second as I think MP has now attempted to educate you.

You might want to consider actually talking to a few prop traders or even guys that run prop shops. Amazingly, they will not let new interns just p!ss money down the drain.

Interns first have to prove themselves on SIM. Then they'll be scalping 1-2 lots. Most likely they'll be trading spreads. If you joined a prop shop as an intern, went through their program, got live on 1-2 lots, then proceeded to spunk $500 in a day, they would most likely haul you into the office for a chat and very likely put you back on SIM.

It means you aren't ready.

Now - here's the rub. The more experience you get, the more the rules are loosened up at a prop shop. So yeah - they are very strict but you are looking at the specifications for an entry level trader.

I challenged Michael Patak to prove he had any profitable traders 2 years ago. At that time, he slipped up and as much as admitted they didn't have any significantly profitable traders. Let me say, Mr. Patak had a good idea which was to gamify trading. I think its a good idea . The problem for me isn't even in the gamification. It is in the way they present themselves and their lack of confidence in their methods and that their deals are structured to be very bad for the trader -- as in TST win/trader lose.

Wow - a challenge,eh? You are obviously a force to be reckoned with in the industry if you are throwing around challenges.

Still - how about you throw that challenge out to say - Futex or Propex? The answer will be the same. Hardly any traders that join prop go live. Then of the ones that go live, most earn a very small amount of money. Many will be back to SIM after a very short time of being live. Then there will be just a few stars who are the ones making most of the money for the shop. It is these people that the shops don't want to lose and these people who get to call the shots a bit more because they have proved themself.

This is how prop works. It is not the dream deal most retail traders such as yourself think it is. With this in mind, if you are looking for a good prop deal, I know of 2 being set up now, one of them in Florida. Contact me if you think you can make the grade at one.

Of course, I am presuming your challenges are about the fact you actually want to join a prop shop. Or do you walk around daily with your chest puffed out challenging people? I can imagine you in the supermaket. 'I challenge that bag of frozen peas does not contain a fill 2kgs"....

 

[OrderFlowDashPro]

DionysusToast,

Yes, I'd be happy to take the challenge to work at a proprietary firm where the owner and the traders interests were completely aligned and that brought out my best skills as a trader. Actually, I have talked to many proprietary firms and do know how they work. I've met the head trader & office manager of what was one of the largest proprietary firm in the US.

I do agree that it is very hard for a trader at a proprietary firm to be profitable. The firm I went to visit had an office for 100 traders but only had 2-3 traders working because the rest quit. However, they didn't charge any training fees and their best traders had virtually unlimited buying power 10 million-14 million per day. Most of the equity firms derived their edge from speed advantage and advantages over retail traders. As there aren't many retail traders and they no longer have any speed advantage, most shut down.

And, yes they did ramp new traders up rapidly. A new trader without any experience had cleared 1 million there in his first 6 months (as recently as 2009). He lost it all over the next 3 months and quit trading. But, he had the opportunity!

Most of the futures proprietary firms now have moved too hiring small groups of programmers and quants who work as a team and split the money amongst themselves. As for the type of discretionary trading that Propex, TST, and a few others use, those are few and far between these days.

I spoke with a futures prop in Chicago that still used discretionary traders -- was only able to find one. They start traders with about $2,000 daily risk limit and from what I've heard they gave their traders quite a bit of freedom and didn't limit them to day trading.

I've also spoke with Propex traders. It looks like they were paying a $1,000/month draw a few years back. Now, according to a trader I spoke with, they charge around $1,000/month -- but don't quote me as that might include software. They start their traders with a $2,000 daily drawdown. Drawdown limit are unknown but believed to be around $8,000-$10,000. Is paying the owners $1,000 month the best model? Probably not but it is "fair enough" that I'd take it -- assuming everything was as I was told. I would not take TST's current offer, however. Let me add, this trader was working toward a 50k daily loss limit.

Let me say, I'm not here to tear down TST. As a vendor of trading software, I'd be very happy to see TST flourish from actually trading. It would benefit the industry. My beef with TST is what looks like a model to make money off the traders versus from the trading. Let me take that back, I don't even care they want to make money from the losers but let's see that they have a model that actually has winners (besides the owners). What really bother me about TST is that some traders who could actually do well under more reasonable conditions will go there, end up recylcing never ending combines, and then quit trading without ever realizing they could have been successful.

And, I'd be more then happy to promote a legitament futures proprietary firm that backed discretionary and independent traders.

 

[TopstepTrader]

DionysusToast,

Yes, I'd be happy to take the challenge to work at a proprietary firm where the owner and the traders interests were completely aligned and that brought out my best skills as a trader. Actually, I have talked to many proprietary firms and do know how they work. I've met the head trader & office manager of what was one of the largest proprietary firm in the US.

I do agree that it is very hard for a trader at a proprietary firm to be profitable. The firm I went to visit had an office for 100 traders but only had 2-3 traders working because the rest quit. However, they didn't charge any training fees and their best traders had virtually unlimited buying power 10 million-14 million per day. Most of the equity firms derived their edge from speed advantage and advantages over retail traders. As there aren't many retail traders and they no longer have any speed advantage, most shut down.

And, yes they did ramp new traders up rapidly. A new trader without any experience had cleared 1 million there in his first 6 months (as recently as 2009). He lost it all over the next 3 months and quit trading. But, he had the opportunity!

Most of the futures proprietary firms now have moved too hiring small groups of programmers and quants who work as a team and split the money amongst themselves. As for the type of discretionary trading that Propex, TST, and a few others use, those are few and far between these days.

I spoke with a futures prop in Chicago that still used discretionary traders -- was only able to find one. They start traders with about $2,000 daily risk limit and from what I've heard they gave their traders quite a bit of freedom and didn't limit them to day trading.

I've also spoke with Propex traders. It looks like they were paying a $1,000/month draw a few years back. Now, according to a trader I spoke with, they charge around $1,000/month -- but don't quote me as that might include software. They start their traders with a $2,000 daily drawdown. Drawdown limit are unknown but believed to be around $8,000-$10,000. Is paying the owners $1,000 month the best model? Probably not but it is "fair enough" that I'd take it -- assuming everything was as I was told. I would not take TST's current offer, however. Let me add, this trader was working toward a 50k daily loss limit.

Let me say, I'm not here to tear down TST. As a vendor of trading software, I'd be very happy to see TST flourish from actually trading. It would benefit the industry. My beef with TST is what looks like a model to make money off the traders versus from the trading. Let me take that back, I don't even care they want to make money from the losers but let's see that they have a model that actually has winners (besides the owners). What really bother me about TST is that some traders who could actually do well under more reasonable conditions will go there, end up recylcing never ending combines, and then quit trading without ever realizing they could have been successful.

And, I'd be more then happy to promote a legitament futures proprietary firm that backed discretionary and independent traders.

orderflow- I will finish with this so we can hopefully put this conversation to rest. These traders you mention that could actually do well under reasonable conditions CAN customize their rules and profit target for ANY Combine. If they have the talent (meet the objective (follow their rules and meet their profit target) they will get an opportunity to trade at the funded level. If they struggle they WILL have the opportunity to tryout again (Start a new Combine). Editing their rules and profit target, if needs be, or use the prior Combine's experience to learn from and improve (this helps shorten your learning curve), etc. We give this opportunity to learn, develop, and/or get funded to anyone and let the cream rise to the top. This is how TopstepTrader works. Check out our community some time and get a real feel of what it is like. If not, there are other options out there. We may not be the right fit for everyone or every trading style. That is ok with us.

Good conversation either way.

mp

 

[rsh01]

Hence you don't really understand what prop shops do and how they work with new interns.

Then there will be just a few stars who are the ones making most of the money for the shop. It is these people that the shops don't want to lose...

This is how prop works.

that is one way, there are others fyi.

high volume/high rebate trades is the business model of many other prop shops, and in these are a large number of average earning traders which churn a huge amt of volume which keeps these firms in business. the big traders tend (from my experience) to churn less.....when the majority avge joe traders trading 2/5/10s are a bag down pp by 9am then guaranteed this is gonna be a high vol day......the prop firm cld prob afford a blow out or 2 from any of these traders & still make loadsa dough.

producing amazing traders is definitely not their aim, and often they dont mind losing amazing traders to another prop firm cos they do FA round turns vs taking 10% of their profits.

you tell these guys you are great swing trader with 1:4 rr trading fx/comod futures & they wont care too much about taking you on. say you have a great track record of risk averse, & small profitable TED spread trading lot size 120/150 few clips a day then they will kiss your poonanny every day.

think i may be repeating myself so will stop.

 

[Qbgx]

Leopard- Our community is very transparent.
-Michael Patak

Let's cut through the fog, the red herrings, the straw men, and all the elaborate discussions about the customization of "Combines". Let's set aside all the hand wringing from "Funded Traders" who, having never made any real money, attribute it to their own shortcomings and feel compelled to intensify their spiritual quests, documented in their Journals. Why not throw the football metaphors out the window too, while we are at it.

Let's talk about the only logical reason for subscribing to this promotion. The IMPLICATION that by purchasing a subscription, you will have an opportunity to progress to earning a meaningful income through trading of Patak funded equity. Otherwise, what would be the point? The camaraderie of the Man Cave chat room?

It doesn't really matter how many "Funded Traders" or "Draft Choices" or "Honored Guests" or whatever you want to call them there are. The fact that there has never been any outside-vetted disclosure of the existence of ANY meaningfully profitable traders who have emerged from the fraction of subscribers designated as "Funded Traders" indicates to me that it is highly unlikely that any such meaningfully profitable traders exist.

Mr. Transparency likes to say that this information is withheld to protect the privacy of his traders. That's just like saying that releasing the statistical results of a clinical trial violates the privacy of the patients who participate.

I fail to see how the release of AGGREGATED ANONYMOUS information threatens the privacy of any individual except one, whose name has already been mentioned.

So, Combiners, please be encouraged to fill in the blanks to believe whatever you want. After all, would be traders are known for their gullibility. Even if there are no meaningfully profitable traders yet, maybe YOU will be THE FIRST ONE. But think of this phrase should you be able to wrap your brain around the simple proposition set forth above:

Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself.