kimo'sabby
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Top Step Trader?
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The Leopard
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Well, if you say so. But that list of conditions makes me wonder how many people get their deposits back.
Dash more or less summed it up in his post above. This is not an outfit I would be willing to trust.
Well guys, I am funded with them. Been funded with them twice before but due to bad trading on my part lost those accounts. Got funded again with them, did not have to make up any losses, have not paid for any combines or anything.
The fact of the matter is this, if you can trade good enough to have a positive balance at the end of the month you can get your deposit back or roll it over to the next month to see if you can make target then. If you think it is too hard to do this and think the requirements are to strict I don't really see how you can trade your own money live without constantly having to put more money into your account.
Just work out your game plan, trade small, trade less and put some positive days together. Don't focus on the p/l, focus on getting good trades and forming good habits.
You can get a custom combine where they only measure your success against your p/l if you like. It will be a bigger target but still if you cant get a roll (above $0) in the combine, it is my opinion you should not be trading futures live in your account.
Ian
The fact of the matter is this, if you can trade good enough to have a positive balance at the end of the month you can get your deposit back or roll it over to the next month to see if you can make target then. If you think it is too hard to do this and think the requirements are to strict I don't really see how you can trade your own money live without constantly having to put more money into your account.
Just work out your game plan, trade small, trade less and put some positive days together. Don't focus on the p/l, focus on getting good trades and forming good habits.
You can get a custom combine where they only measure your success against your p/l if you like. It will be a bigger target but still if you cant get a roll (above $0) in the combine, it is my opinion you should not be trading futures live in your account.
Ian
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Shakone
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Thanks for posting ian. Curious, which combine did you pass -30k/50k/150k?
Do you trade full time with them?
Did I understand correctly that you must essentially repeat the combine performance until you have $5000, or is that you had to re-do the combine because you lost money?
Do you trade full time with them?
Did I understand correctly that you must essentially repeat the combine performance until you have $5000, or is that you had to re-do the combine because you lost money?
jungles
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lots of restrictions at topstep, you could be a successful pro trader and still not make the grade
3 to 4% DD over the 60 day period is nice if you can get it, but it isnt necessary in order to manage risk skilfully and be "successful"
open positions must be closed at the end of the day
fx products limited to 6 pairs
there are better firms out there
3 to 4% DD over the 60 day period is nice if you can get it, but it isnt necessary in order to manage risk skilfully and be "successful"
open positions must be closed at the end of the day
fx products limited to 6 pairs
there are better firms out there
Hi, yes I trade full time with them.
I had to repeat the combine because I lost money and got down close to my max draw down on the 50k which is 2k
The thing is once live you don't have any time limit to make any profit goals and from my experience they don't give you much hassle as long as your account is positive. On the other hand if your account is negative you have to meet certain criteria in order to stay live such as the process goals as they call them in the combine. Tell you the truth they are not very strict on them if you show that you have patience and discipline and trade well even if your account is not positive.
TST is not a firm that suits all styles of trading but you are allowed to trade your personal live account along side theirs so it suits me just fine. I do more swing trading and options on my personal account but I must say that I have learned a whole lot from going through the process to adapt to the combine criteria and I am really enjoying trading for them.
They do not have restrictions on how much or little you must trade or anything so I just come in and try to make a few $$$ every day and shut it down.
Hope that helps Ian
kimo'sabby
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random12345
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Can I say the obvious.... I don't get this model from the investor perspective, which is why I assume the return and D/D requirements are considerably above the informal industry standard.
Now if I wanted my money traded by others and I went to the effort of gathering experts (let's let this term ride...) in order to create coaching opportunities, tutor others, judge their performance, manage applicants and funded traders etc etc... why on earth would I not just divide the money between the experts themselves rather than people from the interwebs? It feels more like philanthropy otherwise, except I'd know deep down it wasn't because I was being a right b'tard when it came to d/d and return. I can't recall a trading collective of amateurs that really worked beyond the original Turtles and ... well... I don't get it from the Investor perspective either.
Seems like oil futures are the most popular instrument there so perhaps they focus on CL yet struggle for single price liquidity and spread the cash and opinions accordingly!?
Maybe DT can weigh in on the pros.
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ZEN archer
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I love the idea. If new clients keep trying they can't fail - either they end up with top traders or take deposits. Also it's good for the clients who lose their deposits - instead of losing all of the account they lose only 50% and can see it as a lesson in risk management.
MichaelPatak
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lots of restrictions at topstep, you could be a successful pro trader and still not make the grade
3 to 4% DD over the 60 day period is nice if you can get it, but it isnt necessary in order to manage risk skilfully and be "successful"
open positions must be closed at the end of the day
fx products limited to 6 pairs
there are better firms out there
Jungles- The rules TST has while in the Combine are basic rules all traders should follow whether with TST or trading on their own. We place a strong emphasis on risk management, as unsuccessful traders focus too much on putting together an upside rather than focusing on protecting their downside. The Combine program allows us to see who has this ability and can put together a solid upside.
mp
HipsterPipster
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Having worked through the combine objectives and rolled one over, it is my opinion the program is top notch. A trader is on sim but, has some element of skin in the game from combine fee structure. For traders looking to get backed, TopStepTrader's program is very reasonable and straight forward.
Apply trading, establish your skills and get recruit to a lineup of profitable, economically backed traders, all without risking any personal trading capital.
http://nextoptions.com/
http://nextoptions.com/
OrderFlowDashPro
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I monitored TopStepTrader from shortly after the inception. There management left a lot of questions. First, your money is on the line because you pay the combine fee which is about 10% of the total risk they give you. So, if it takes you 3x or 4x to get funded, you could have funded yourself at the 30% to 40% level. I don't buy it either that people trade better with "skin in the game". If that were the case then why go to the proprietary route anyway? More skin in game, better trader -- nonsense.
The combines seem unnecessarily strict and they have incentive to fail traders. But, sure that's fine. They can be as strict as they want. My problem is they claim to help traders become successful but if they're setting traders up with too strict rules, too many conditions, etc then they may be failing traders (leading otherwise successful traders) to believe they aren't successful. So, until they produce some evidence that they can actually produce successful traders then I'll have reservations.
Having said that, I can understand why they wouldn't want to pass just anyone, but if there real intention is to make profits from their proprietary division, it seems they could reduce the combine to either be free (right because they make the real money from prop division), a trivial fee like $50 per combine would be enough to drop the playing field, or a "one time" fee of something more substantial could make sense. For example, $500 to be evaluated over an entire year. Anything is better then tying high fees to the individual combines creates the incentive to cycle recruits through the combines.
The second problem with the tiered combines is in the conceptual nature of it. The bigger combines cost more and you get more buying power but the whole purpose of going to a prop firm is so that they will ramp you up rapidly if you do well. By charging more for more buying power, it suggests that they don't ramp their successful traders up rapidly or that they are knowingly charging folks more for a trivial benefit -- because they'd be ramped up anyway.
The combines seem unnecessarily strict and they have incentive to fail traders. But, sure that's fine. They can be as strict as they want. My problem is they claim to help traders become successful but if they're setting traders up with too strict rules, too many conditions, etc then they may be failing traders (leading otherwise successful traders) to believe they aren't successful. So, until they produce some evidence that they can actually produce successful traders then I'll have reservations.
Having said that, I can understand why they wouldn't want to pass just anyone, but if there real intention is to make profits from their proprietary division, it seems they could reduce the combine to either be free (right because they make the real money from prop division), a trivial fee like $50 per combine would be enough to drop the playing field, or a "one time" fee of something more substantial could make sense. For example, $500 to be evaluated over an entire year. Anything is better then tying high fees to the individual combines creates the incentive to cycle recruits through the combines.
The second problem with the tiered combines is in the conceptual nature of it. The bigger combines cost more and you get more buying power but the whole purpose of going to a prop firm is so that they will ramp you up rapidly if you do well. By charging more for more buying power, it suggests that they don't ramp their successful traders up rapidly or that they are knowingly charging folks more for a trivial benefit -- because they'd be ramped up anyway.
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DionysusToast
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Yet people pass combines and get funded all the time....
Listen to this guy - if you don't shed a tear, you may not be human.
They are strict, it is their money after all.
You can roll combines if you fail too.
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
Ultimately - if you can't stand the heat, don't apply @ Topstep.
Whining about it being too hard is not going to make you a successful trader.
Listen to this guy - if you don't shed a tear, you may not be human.
They are strict, it is their money after all.
You can roll combines if you fail too.
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
Ultimately - if you can't stand the heat, don't apply @ Topstep.
Whining about it being too hard is not going to make you a successful trader.
tar
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S
sonofcablemonster
+1
Seriously guys you are not falling for this sh1t ?!
CAVEAT EMPTOR
the round turn overrides must be staggering. 1 euro round turns on Eurex and 1.5 dollar round turns on CME are common place for those moving volume. I think they are billing out like $3. It really is a win-win-win-win-win-win for them. but it's not illegal to make money and not the only example of where the informed/strong take from the less informed/weak.
GTTY
S
sonofcablemonster
wow just checked their site and they bill out round turns at $5. that is huge. they will be paying $1.50 at source maybe as low as $1 if there is enough volume. even at 1000 spins a month that would be $3500 pm profits per trader. get some.
L
Liquid validity
Looking at some of the reviews and other threads floating around,
it does look like the earner is the combine fees:
http://www.chicagonow.com/ex-posts-facto/2011/11/topsteptrader/
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/wwwto...ake-you-pay-over-and-over-again-for-co-840089
http://investimonials.com/websites/reviews-topsteptrader.aspx
https://www.bigmiketrading.com/vendors-product-reviews/11360-anybody-heard-topsteptrader-review.html
http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-products-services/10160-topsteptrader.html
http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?t=248798&pp=6
I've no personal experience of it, or interest.
For me the biggest stumbling block is that anyone good enough to
get full backing at TST could do so elsewhere as well, with lower costs etc.
Other than that, it looks like pay for SIM...
Maybe there are benefits for those that couldn't jump through the hoops
of the more traditional route, but on the whole its pretty clear where
TST's profits come from.
it does look like the earner is the combine fees:
http://www.chicagonow.com/ex-posts-facto/2011/11/topsteptrader/
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/wwwto...ake-you-pay-over-and-over-again-for-co-840089
http://investimonials.com/websites/reviews-topsteptrader.aspx
https://www.bigmiketrading.com/vendors-product-reviews/11360-anybody-heard-topsteptrader-review.html
http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-products-services/10160-topsteptrader.html
http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?t=248798&pp=6
I've no personal experience of it, or interest.
For me the biggest stumbling block is that anyone good enough to
get full backing at TST could do so elsewhere as well, with lower costs etc.
Other than that, it looks like pay for SIM...
Maybe there are benefits for those that couldn't jump through the hoops
of the more traditional route, but on the whole its pretty clear where
TST's profits come from.
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OrderFlowDashPro
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DionysusToast wrote
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
---
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you wrote there or if you think people are that stupid?
The "150K account" has a MAX DRAWDOWN of less then $5,000! The max DD for the 150K account is $4,500. But, they take approximately 50% of profit --while it varies around that value, it is a good approximate. So, you can pretty much reduce that in half, in other words you actually get the "risk" of $2500. You pay $400 to apply for the program which you lose if you aren't profitable or go over DD limits. So let's say you pass on the second time and failed the first, we can reduce the actual risk they are taking by $400, we get $2100. This is about the DAILY risk limit that a real prop provides.
So, you only need to risk around $2,000 to match the so called 150k program. TST doesn't let you hold overnight, so with day trading margins, your total account required is going to be around $5,000-- which is the minimum to open an account at most brokerages.
I challenged Michael Patak to prove he had any profitable traders 2 years ago. At that time, he slipped up and as much as admitted they didn't have any significantly profitable traders. Let me say, Mr. Patak had a good idea which was to gamify trading. I think its a good idea . The problem for me isn't even in the gamification. It is in the way they present themselves and their lack of confidence in their methods and that their deals are structured to be very bad for the trader -- as in TST win/trader lose.
A good measure of the model of TST isn't how many pass a combine, it is what the combine turns out to be worth. As such, the best measure is I think the peak equity of their top traders that they hit, which is the combination of withdraw+peak account equity. This is a generous measurement because many will give back all their profits and never see them.
If you have a $5k account you will NOT make a living from it. If you have a $150k account with Topstep, then that is a different matter altogether.
---
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you wrote there or if you think people are that stupid?
The "150K account" has a MAX DRAWDOWN of less then $5,000! The max DD for the 150K account is $4,500. But, they take approximately 50% of profit --while it varies around that value, it is a good approximate. So, you can pretty much reduce that in half, in other words you actually get the "risk" of $2500. You pay $400 to apply for the program which you lose if you aren't profitable or go over DD limits. So let's say you pass on the second time and failed the first, we can reduce the actual risk they are taking by $400, we get $2100. This is about the DAILY risk limit that a real prop provides.
So, you only need to risk around $2,000 to match the so called 150k program. TST doesn't let you hold overnight, so with day trading margins, your total account required is going to be around $5,000-- which is the minimum to open an account at most brokerages.
I challenged Michael Patak to prove he had any profitable traders 2 years ago. At that time, he slipped up and as much as admitted they didn't have any significantly profitable traders. Let me say, Mr. Patak had a good idea which was to gamify trading. I think its a good idea . The problem for me isn't even in the gamification. It is in the way they present themselves and their lack of confidence in their methods and that their deals are structured to be very bad for the trader -- as in TST win/trader lose.
A good measure of the model of TST isn't how many pass a combine, it is what the combine turns out to be worth. As such, the best measure is I think the peak equity of their top traders that they hit, which is the combination of withdraw+peak account equity. This is a generous measurement because many will give back all their profits and never see them.
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random12345
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The best thing about this saga so far is that Elite traders were forced to prove how incredibly hard efficient futures are to make money from with a low risk profile whenever they do a TST journal. Some big names there completely failed (excuses abound) and it was good to watch since I was relatively sure most of them are the fantasist variety typing from their warehouse admin job in Hoboken.
Now if only we could get FXmo to take one.
