The Market Matrix

[mee1]

Thanks a gain for the relply..

Seems we agree on the basic premiss of Fib and waves

I can see where your coming from with Delta helping with waves, if ones Elliott is still in a learning phase.
Once one gets to grips with EW, thats when one realises how Delta is really just EW.

Its the Elliott wave pattern determines where a "delta point" can come in, not the otherway round. Again this must open peoples eyes to what Delta really is. How else can one explain when a so called "Delta point" comes early or late??

When people start out with delta, they try and fit the EW to the Delta points, When in fact its the otherway round. Its only when people are comfortable with EW after lots of practice of doing those complex counts ect, that they finally see what Delta is.

Speaking of counts, did people note on the SPX that we got the final move down on Tuesday of the lesser 5th wave to complete a wave III or A as mentioned in my earlier post.

Time wise we had 21,34,55,89,233 ect from verious wave points based on calendar days...

That would make the 4th low in a row on the SPX which means an extended wave, so we now get a move up into a wave IV or B, Before heading lower again in either the V or C.

In delta speak, that 4 intermediate(ITD) lows so a Medium (MTD) low had to come in. So we need a move up to the Next MTD.

The question is do we really need delta/matrix if people have a grasp of EW...

I agree with Both of you that EW and Fibo principles are both essential for the market traders. Without understanding both clearly, you can miss in the market trading easily.

However, both Delta and Matrix concepts also use the EW and Fibo to fine tune the time and price as well. My opinion is that if someone can study more details on the related topics, he can enhance his knowledge since the related topics can go to the same ends with different explainations. This does not mean that I cheer anyone to go for paying extra prices on Delta and Matrix. But, if one can find the cheap price of both ,it is worth for him to go for.
Besides, it will be very useful if Delta and Matrix traders can share some knowledges on both concepts for any interested parties to further study. I do not think that sharing the price target of this and that is useful. Only sharing knowledge, which is useful, is to be able to use such knowledge for creating trading system for own uses.

 

[R.Wilson]

I agree mee1,

Don't give the "usual" spread bet sellers an more commishion by paying full price for Matrix. Its simply not worth it, if you can already count waves and do basic time counts as we've highlighted already.

If people can get hold of second hand copies then it might be worth the punt inorder to fine turn peoples EW skills. But $6k + for an EW based "system" could be considered somewhat overvalued...

 

[2be]

I agree with Both of you that EW and Fibo principles are both essential for the market traders. Without understanding both clearly, you can miss in the market trading easily.

However, both Delta and Matrix concepts also use the EW and Fibo to fine tune the time and price as well. My opinion is that if someone can study more details on the related topics, he can enhance his knowledge since the related topics can go to the same ends with different explainations. This does not mean that I cheer anyone to go for paying extra prices on Delta and Matrix. But, if one can find the cheap price of both ,it is worth for him to go for.
Besides, it will be very useful if Delta and Matrix traders can share some knowledges on both concepts for any interested parties to further study. I do not think that sharing the price target of this and that is useful. Only sharing knowledge, which is useful, is to be able to use such knowledge for creating trading system for own uses.

I do agree that the cost of both tutorials is high, but there is a cheapper way, buying books, or borrowing them from the library if possible. Sometimes one can get it second hand. For the example of counts please go to the thread earlier indicated in my posting just a few days ago on this thread, it relates to the GBP/USD pair. Both counts can be done manually on MT4, on a demo account, or one can write some indicators for it. MT4 has also got the majority if fibs required, but I do not know if it has day counts option, if not, one can search for the special indicator. MT4 useful forum is
Forex Trading, or other forums including T2W.
Best wishes,
2be

 

[2be]

Thanks a gain for the relply..

Seems we agree on the basic premiss of Fib and waves

I can see where your coming from with Delta helping with waves, if ones Elliott is still in a learning phase.
Once one gets to grips with EW, thats when one realises how Delta is really just EW.

Its the Elliott wave pattern determines where a "delta point" can come in, not the otherway round. Again this must open peoples eyes to what Delta really is. How else can one explain when a so called "Delta point" comes early or late??

When people start out with delta, they try and fit the EW to the Delta points, When in fact its the otherway round. Its only when people are comfortable with EW after lots of practice of doing those complex counts ect, that they finally see what Delta is.

Speaking of counts, did people note on the SPX that we got the final move down on Tuesday of the lesser 5th wave to complete a wave III or A as mentioned in my earlier post.

Time wise we had 21,34,55,89,233 ect from verious wave points based on calendar days...

That would make the 4th low in a row on the SPX which means an extended wave, so we now get a move up into a wave IV or B, Before heading lower again in either the V or C.

In delta speak, that 4 intermediate(ITD) lows so a Medium (MTD) low had to come in. So we need a move up to the Next MTD.

The question is do we really need delta/matrix if people have a grasp of EW...

Interestingly Welles Wilder claims in the book, that Delta has nothing in common with, EW, Fibs, Gunn, and so on. "DELTA is not based on anything whatsoever known in the commodity world" Welles Wilder, Delta Phenomenon or The Hidden Order in all Markets. Pure Delta just looks at turning points in time, with the LTD being probably the most important degree of turning points.
I think it is Matrix that brings EW and Fibs alongside Delta, and I am in that camp.
As to what has bigger influence on my trading, EW or Delta, I would not like to say ATM, I have not thought about it in these terms, and I would not like to misslead anybody.
Best wishes,
2be

 

[mee1]

I do agree that the cost of both tutorials is high, but there is a cheapper way, buying books, or borrowing them from the library if possible. Sometimes one can get it second hand. For the example of counts please go to the thread earlier indicated in my posting just a few days ago on this thread, it relates to the GBP/USD pair. Both counts can be done manually on MT4, on a demo account, or one can write some indicators for it. MT4 has also got the majority if fibs required, but I do not know if it has day counts option, if not, one can search for the special indicator. MT4 useful forum is
Forex Trading, or other forums including T2W.
Best wishes,
2be

Someone says that MT has almost the same fucntion as DT (Dynamic Trader).
To me, Dt is best to study and use for trading both Delta and Matrix Principle. In case of Delta Graphic Director is not flexible as DT does.

(Of course, this DT must have matrix addon function .)

 

[mee1]

Interestingly Welles Wilder claims in the book, that Delta has nothing in common with, EW, Fibs, Gunn, and so on. "DELTA is not based on anything whatsoever known in the commodity world" Welles Wilder, Delta Phenomenon or The Hidden Order in all Markets. Pure Delta just looks at turning points in time, with the LTD being probably the most important degree of turning points.
I think it is Matrix that brings EW and Fibs alongside Delta, and I am in that camp.
As to what has bigger influence on my trading, EW or Delta, I would not like to say ATM, I have not thought about it in these terms, and I would not like to misslead anybody.
Best wishes,
2be

If someone is seriously studying Delta prior to EW, he never knows that Delta has a connection to EW in some ways or another. But ,if he knows EW theory prior to learning Delta, he will realize that Delta is a part of EW theory. Just like Feng Shui, there are many different schools, each school has its own practice. But, the root of each school is the same. It depends on how deep the one can dig into. Even,Steve Copan of
Market Matrix has used EW theory in his trading; and I have never heard pubicly that Matrix is not in somehow connected to EW theory. In fact,what I know up to now is that
EW, Delta, Matrix theories can all predict the future directions of the market.

 

[2be]

If someone is seriously studying Delta prior to EW, he never knows that Delta has a connection to EW in some ways or another. But ,if he knows EW theory prior to learning Delta, he will realize that Delta is a part of EW theory. Just like Feng Shui, there are many different schools, each school has its own practice. But, the root of each school is the same. It depends on how deep the one can dig into. Even,Steve Copan of
Market Matrix has used EW theory in his trading; and I have never heard pubicly that Matrix is not in somehow connected to EW theory. In fact,what I know up to now is that
EW, Delta, Matrix theories can all predict the future directions of the market.

I use DT with the added Time grid for IDT, MTD & LTD, it is very good software. Robert Miner's book is also very well written. I use also MT4 but in a different way to DT, as there is no reason to duplicate. I also agree with your comments that Delta, EW and Fibs have got things in common, and brought together in Market Matrix, provides a formidable tool for the trader.

Best wishes,
2be

 

[R.Wilson]

Interestingly Welles Wilder claims in the book, that Delta has nothing in common with, EW, Fibs, Gann, and so on..

I remember at the time Wilder was selling Delta for $36K a pop. I doubt one could be able to command such a price, if Delta was based on something already know to the trading community.

Speaking of the Book, there is a very veiled reference to its orgin, that Jim Sloman, an excellent mathematician made.
To quote

I visualized the markets as being a hologram

This is the very key that most over look! Holography is based on wave phenomena.

All one has to do, is just take the time to look.

 

[2be]

I remember at the time Wilder was selling Delta for $36K a pop. He new full well, he could not command such a price if it was based on something that was already know to the trading community.

Speaking of the Book, there is a very veiled reference to its orgin, that Jim Sloman, an excellent mathematician made.
To quote
This is the very key that most over look! Holography is based on wave phenomena.

All one has to do, is just take the time to look.

Just have read this sentence yesterday, as I am reading this book again. It cought my attention and I thought about the significance of this sentence. You are obviously very well informed on Delta, which makes your postings and questions very meaningful, if one spends time and effort to answear them. Currently I am of the opinion that both, EW and Delta are looking at the market from a similar perspective, achieved Highs and Lows. What I like about Delta is the rigid time structure, which without a doubt is also present in the EW, but the rigidity of time markers and time frames has been enforced more by Delta.
Best wishes,
2be

 

[LevII]

Has anybody actually made any money from this?

 

[2be]

Has anybody actually made any money from this?

Hardest work by a trader is done by putting a trading system together. Trading then is a practical application of that system. If one uses Delta counts and EW tacted by Fibonacci as an important part od the trading approach, and one has been in the market for several years, than the unswear is Yes, and I personaly have made money trading in the way I have tried to describe in my latest posts on the threads related to Delta, EW and Fibs. Having experienced the importance of Delta interpreted in this particular way assist me to make good returnes and doing so consistently and with confidence in the trading approcach which I have put together. It might not be a highly original one, as there are elements taken from different traders, approaches and so on, but for the trading purposes the system has been designed by myself, and through the proxy of this system I am responsible for the losses and profits. I did not have a major loss since the system has been put into place, the system would not allow it. The profits are good and the best run so far has been achieving 60% increase of my trading capital without risking more then 5% within 3 trading days. There are days that provide smaller profits, and days with loger runs into the right direction. Hope it is not too boring for you, just wanted to let you know how important the given elements of a trading system are for me, still a learning trader, but trading with "mine" system.
Best wishes, and many good trades,
2be

 

[LevII]

Glad to hear of your success.

Many moons (excuse the pun) ago I was canvassed by a trustworthy vendor offering Market Matrix on a money back if not satisfied basis. As there was nothing to lose and I was going away on a long holiday with time to kill I acquired the CDs.

I returned them and received my money back.

The CDs were entertaining. What made me send them back though was a 'post' or two by Steve Copan on the members' bulletin board. I know not if they are still there.

​

What Steve Copan said was (1) he does did actually use the material he explained on the first and, to a lesser extent, later CDs; and (2) the clues to the way he does things were all on the CDs if one looked for them.

It seemed to me that if all the CDs did was give clues to the way Mr Copan traded and he did not actually practice what the CDs preached then there was little point in continuing to watch them.

Perhaps I was wrong. I shall never know.

LII
​

 

[2be]

Glad to hear of your success.

Many moons (excuse the pun) ago I was canvassed by a trustworthy vendor offering Market Matrix on a money back if not satisfied basis. As there was nothing to lose and I was going away on a long holiday with time to kill I acquired the CDs.

I returned them and received my money back.

The CDs were entertaining. What made me send them back though was a 'post' or two by Steve Copan on the members' bulletin board. I know not if they are still there.

​

What Steve Copan said was (1) he does did actually use the material he explained on the first and, to a lesser extent, later CDs; and (2) the clues to the way he does things were all on the CDs if one looked for them.

It seemed to me that if all the CDs did was give clues to the way Mr Copan traded and he did not actually practice what the CDs preached then there was little point in continuing to watch them.

Perhaps I was wrong. I shall never know.

LII
​

Hi, I use the principles of Delta time cycles and EW + the fibs. I use 12points count on cable and ITD, MTD and LTD. Thats all.I use DT software with the EOD data, with these TF lines as a grid. I am aware that Matrix has changed a bit, but I have not followed that developement. I also have the book, The Delta Phenomenon, by Welles Wilder. Delta rules are few and simple to implement. I do not subscribe to Matrix or Delta newsletters, just quietly working out the counts and EW structure applying Fibnacci ratios and numbers to price and time. There are few of us and we compare our counts from time to time. That perspective has prooved very helpfull to me, especially when the counts are more obvious that atm. No big deal, I just get it and use it being aware of its limitations and the positive sides.
Best wishes,
2be

 

[mee1]

Glad to hear of your success.

Many moons (excuse the pun) ago I was canvassed by a trustworthy vendor offering Market Matrix on a money back if not satisfied basis. As there was nothing to lose and I was going away on a long holiday with time to kill I acquired the CDs.

I returned them and received my money back.

The CDs were entertaining. What made me send them back though was a 'post' or two by Steve Copan on the members' bulletin board. I know not if they are still there.

​

What Steve Copan said was (1) he does did actually use the material he explained on the first and, to a lesser extent, later CDs; and (2) the clues to the way he does things were all on the CDs if one looked for them.

It seemed to me that if all the CDs did was give clues to the way Mr Copan traded and he did not actually practice what the CDs preached then there was little point in continuing to watch them.

Perhaps I was wrong. I shall never know.

LII
​

I agree with you at the first time when I watch these three CDs; at that time I think that I can gain nothing from the CDs since Copan talks about what I already knew. (Before I watch CDs ,I practice EW principle as my main core.) But after my watching these CDs many times, I find out more on his given information bit by bit. Finally,I realize what he wants to explain even though it is quite difficult to catch by studying alone. That is why he says very often that what everyone wants to know is on these CDs.

Unfortunately, now I cannot find any cheap source for the new released Matrix book.

 

[2be]

I agree with you at the first time when I watch these three CDs; at that time I think that I can gain nothing from the CDs since Copan talks about what I already knew. (Before I watch CDs ,I practice EW principle as my main core.) But after my watching these CDs many times, I find out more on his given information bit by bit. Finally,I realize what he wants to explain even though it is quite difficult to catch by studying alone. That is why he says very often that what everyone wants to know is on these CDs.

Unfortunately, now I cannot find any cheap source for the new released Matrix book.

I am of the opinion that if one works hard to find and apply the basic principles of a given approach, one would not need to depend on a "Hidden Knowledge" or just a marketing devise. If one cannot make money using the priciples descibed in the Delta book and the older Matrix tapes, I would wander if one would recover the cost of the "new" book with this extraordinary knowledge. EW, Delta and fibs, do one really needs any more? If it works, just apply it, if it does not work, make it working.
Best wishes,
2be

 

[mee1]

I am of the opinion that if one works hard to find and apply the basic principles of a given approach, one would not need to depend on a "Hidden Knowledge" or just a marketing devise. If one cannot make money using the priciples descibed in the Delta book and the older Matrix tapes, I would wander if one would recover the cost of the "new" book with this extraordinary knowledge. EW, Delta and fibs, do one really needs any more? If it works, just apply it, if it does not work, make it working.
Best wishes,
2be

Now I have been applying the principles with the satisfactory results.

As active trader, one needs to revise his knowledge continuously in order to catch up with the rapid changing markets. One of best ways and quick ways to obtain the knowledge is to get the newly released resources from the reliable sources.
Without getting improvement of the knowledge, one will be out-of-date sooner or later.
One of the sources in my opnion is the new released book. It is quite expensive. So,now I have been searching for the cheap source.

 

[Smalldog2]

Steve Copin, was selling the original CD the market matrix at 1200 pounds a pop, I bought it together with a friend and tried to impliment it for a year only to lose, lose, lose. Forget it, now 2 years wiser I see this is not worth the paper its printed on.
Yes sometimes it appears to work, and you think wow thats amazing, but then the market will stroll through a turn like butter, no turn it did not work.
The market Matrix tries to then turn the static delta cycles into dynamic ones using calender days and traded day projections of fib numbers ie 3.5.8 etc, well in Copen's examples they work fine, but so they should he recorded the CD after the turns were made, how hard is that to do?

Now as he was pushing a duff product before with the market matrix, do you think he is suddenly got a change of heart and decided to tell the real story
NO, he decided that there are more than enough mugs out their to sell a 600 pound book to with the promise of riches (for guess who?). Picking turns at random with good stops and 300-500 pip targets will make you money, counting 5 waves then going short long whatever will make you money, see trading is not hard, but controlling your risk is, sticking in for a profit when the market goes against you is hard, most turns are three days minimum (see Gann pull back) so sticking in for big targets and closing for small loses is what makes money trading.
By far and away the best is Robert Minors Dynamic Trading, get that and the CD course and follow it, you will make money with that for sure.

Smalldog

 

[doc618]

By far and away the best is Robert Minors Dynamic Trading, get that and the CD course and follow it, you will make money with that for sure.

Smalldog

Do you refer to the Dynamic Trader software as well or just the CD course ?
TIA

 

[Agisthos]

Steve C is now selling a 600 pound system called Pure Matrix, which looks like a day trading system.

Pure Matrix, Steve Copan - FSPonline-recommends.co.uk

(Yes that is an affil link but not mine and I am unable to link directly to the page)

Any relationship between this Pure Matrix and the Market Matrix?

 

[pseudo straddle]

Steve C is now selling a 600 pound system called Pure Matrix, which looks like a day trading system.

Pure Matrix, Steve Copan - FSPonline-recommends.co.uk

(Yes that is an affil link but not mine and I am unable to link directly to the page)

Any relationship between this Pure Matrix and the Market Matrix?

Is this it?

purematrix?

:whistling