The end of the world as we know it?

[SUNSEEKER]

mmillar.

I am in exactly the same boat like everyone else when I spread bet. I think spread betting got its merits if you are trading for the swings, say holding a position more than a of hours. If however, you are scalping using spreadbetting, you really have got to know what you are doing....I think that is where most people lose through SB companies, by overtrading. There are some examples of clients who have really made it big with SB, but to the best of my knowledge they were ALL trend followers....

I just want you to know that just because I work for a SB, and love it as well, does not mean I can't see the flaws either. However, i owe my present trading to an SB company, because that is how I got started. Getting your grounding with an SB company, ie trading with them, was probably the best foundation for taking it one step further. Trading direct means bigger size. With the SB companies you can make some very stupid trades for the heck of it just to experiment. I would not want to have been without that experience.

As for this board. This is a great place to just chat. You have to bear in mind that I spend my whole day trading and watching the market. Occasionally I have to go on TV and embarresh myself, and take all the stick that comes it, but at least I do what I love to do. Coming here to talk markets is a fantastic opportunity to share and learn. My philosophy is that you can never learn to much and the more you give away the more comes back to you. I think it even says that in the good book, but maybe RGLEN can answer that for me.....I am still working my way through Genesis

Sun

 

[a320]

Tom,

May I ask, how you became a Zelator to your path?

mmillar, great post made me smile!!



Cheers a320.

 

[rglenn]

Nice to have you on board Sunseeker you are diffinitely on the right track.

JohnyT on the other hand is writing his own commandments.

Thou shall not trade!

 

[bonsai]

JonT

Thou wicked amd slothful servant....

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to
the exchangers and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him and give it unto him which
hath ten talents.

Mathew 25

Seems it does pay to trade ?
Use it or lose it !


lol

 

[Mr. Charts]

Mmmmmmm............
The search for some greater "truth", "reality", "force", "prophecy", whatever is beyond our grasp, is the manifestation of (wo)man's failure to understand the complexities of an incomprehensible universe and his/her resulting alienation from it.
Apply that concept and everything suddenly falls into place.
We are merely stardust but cannot understand or accept the simplicity or the complexity of that reality.
Live, love and try to make it all just a little bit better for someone each day.
But hey, I'm just a simple minded sort of guy who can recognize a crock of BS from a hundred yards, so what do I know?

 

[JonnyT]

Sorry guys, but I'm just off to the summer solstice in a few mins to lay a few virgins.

This helps my trading immensly.

JonnyT

 

[rglenn]

JohnyT

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Galatians 6
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Thus sayeth the preacher!

 

[Trader333]

rglenn,

This is probably going to annoy you but I am intersted to know your thoughts on the following:

Do you really think that Jesus Christ would have engaged in trading ? An activity which if he were successful would result in losses to those he has made a gain from ? (ie a zero sum game) Christian doctrine is the total opposite of this in that Christians attempt to live a life as close to that of Christ as possible and that means sacrifice of gain by the individual for the greater good and benefit of the many. Spreadbetting and trading of futures is a total contradiction to this, if you win many others must lose.

It is not that long ago that Christians were not even allowed to lend money with the aim of getting it back with interest which is why the Jewish community were so successful as money lenders. I have seen time and again so called Christians attempt to adapt the teachings of Christ to suit their own lifestyles as it makes them feel more comfortable with their own actions which are clearly not that of the teachings of Christ. One well known and public multi-millionaire who also claims to be a Christian when asked “Doesn’t scripture say that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven” replied by saying “Yes but it doesn’t say that it is impossible” which is a pathetic answer to justify the fact that they were not prepared to do what was really necessary to become a true follower of Christ.

I have to say that this mentality is exactly the same as that of the Pharisees of 2000 years ago in that they say all the right things, attend the synagogues to pray, fast and abstain and outwardly were considered highly religious but were branded as hypocrites by Christ on many occasions.

So I am interested to know how can you justify spreadbetting and the trading of futures from a Christian standpoint in view of the fact that your engagement in this activity will result in others being worse off as a result (assuming you make money of course) ?

Paul

 

[rglenn]

Trader333

You are very much missing the point here.

There are many things that christians do that Jesus didn't do or have no need of doing that does not condemn these people just because Jesus wouldn't have done it or didn't do it.

Jesus did not get married does that means everyone that gets married is wrong-far from it.

In the matter of trading.

If someone gives you money is that stealing?

Stealing is when you take something without someone's consent.

Everyone that's trading wants to trade no one is forcing them to do it.

Despite everything you have said- I have not said one word to condemn you. It is God that justifies and it is God that will condemn

 

[Trader333]

rglenn,

I am not attempting to condemn you far from it as I am no better than the next man but I am questioning the logic of your argument against that of principals held by Christian teaching and I dont think I have missed the point. I know that Jesus attended the Wedding feast at Cana and that in istelf is approval. It is the principal I am talking of and not the specific action. The question I would ask myself would be this:

Are people better off for my actions or are people better off if I have decided not to act ?

In normal work which has "Value Added" the answer is almost universally "Yes" In trading or spreadbetting the answer is almosty universally "No" unless you decide to trade to deliberately lose money.

I cannot think of one instance where Christ took an action that was, not in principal, for the greater good of others. To act outside of this cannot be considered Christian practice.

I am sure you will find some argument for justifying what you do as you say if someone gives you money is it stealing (your words and not mine) and of course it isnt. But what if those people who gave you the money now want it back ? are you going to give it ?

There is one area of trading that fits in well with Christian principals but in my view it isnt SB or futures trading and with that I am finished posting on this subject as I am sure others are fed up with it.


Paul

 

[JonnyT]

Paul,

You are spot on.

Trading to a Christian is like feeding pigs and alcohol to muslims.

Religion has no part to play in trading for a living.

JonnyT

 

[rglenn]

Trader333

It seems to me you are seeking for truth but trying to find it by trying to compare fellow humans activities with what you think are christian principles-Go directly to God to find your answers.

The ten commandments are the laws we should abide by if you choose to add additional ones that's up to you.

But don't expect me to follow them.

 

[jpwone]

Trading (long and short side) provides liquidity in the markets which is good for the market. A liquid market is a fairer market as it allows entry and exit of the market. So, it could be argued that the majority benefit from the actions of traders even if some traders lose. There is no inconsistency with trading for a living and living a christian (or any other religion) life.

 

[bonsai]

jpwone I agree .

there is no moral difference between trading in futures and
trading in loaves of bread.Even 5 loaves.!
In both cases the trader goes 'long' hoping for a profit.
In both cases, they may have to 'close' at the end of the day
when the trade goes stale.
(unless you are Sainsburys, where it seems they keep things on the shelf beyound their 'sell by' date)
Just pray to god I never have to take deliveryof 50,000 barrels of oil !

Its tax collectors we need to condemn.

....... ....... ........

 

[JonnyT]

There is a difference.

The person selling the bread has either made the loaf from raw materials thus doing 'value add' else he bought it from a distributor. This is not a zero sum game. Trading futures is.

Next you will be telling me that the Church of England has appointed a Gay Bishop!!!

JonnyT

 

[jpwone]

JT
the CofE could appoint a widemouthed frog for all the difference it would make to my life.

To apply your 'value added' arguemant to trading then surely if the bread seller is buying his bread pre-made and then reselling the value he is adding is the availability of the bread at a convenient location. By using corn futures the actual bread producer is able to maintain a consistent price for his bread and thus an orderly market to and for the retailer.

The trader who buys or sells Futures is adding to the liquidity of the market - this is the value he/she is adding. They are providing a market for the baker to hedge his future corn costs. Someone has to take the other side of the trade and without traders the bakers would have a very inefficient market to trade the corn futures.

It is speculation in the Futures market which provides the liquidity. So, whilst the Futures trader may never grow a single head of corn or bake a single loaf he/she will have contributed to the smooth and efficient supply of that corn and bread.

Next you will be telling me that the Church of England has appointed a Loaf of Bread!!!

 

[mmillar]

Trader333 & JonnyT,

If you think trading is such terrible/pointless/evil thing why do you do it? If I think something is wrong then I don't do it. Not because it is in the Bible (or any other religious text) but because I am able to make my own moral decisions about right and wrong. Surely if you think trading is wrong then you shouldn't do it.

There are plenty of religious groups and sects that promote wealth creation because then its followers can share their wealth with the less fortunate. Once of the best traders I ever knew used to make a fortune trading options and futures during the week, and then go and knock on peoples doors on Sundays. His wealth enabled him to spend time preaching to the 'heathen' and to give money to his church.

rglenn may be a religious nut but telling him how to interprete his Bible seems a bit pointless to me.

This started as a good laugh but is getting a bit serious now. It's the end of the weekend so perhaps we should get back to trading.

Until next weekend...

 

[bonsai]

Perhaps the best trader you will ever come across
is the Roman Catholic Church.
£5 on the plate and a place in heaven - guaranteed !
Absolution of sins ? How much am I offered?
The bigger the sin, the greater the hold over you.
And once a week a Rollover. Wine into blood !
Don't think even the FSA would allow that.

 

[Trader333]

I wasnt going to post on this again but now others have questioned my motives I will and this will be the last.

mmiller,

Wealth creation involves doing something the total value of which is greater than the sum of individual parts and hence everyone benefits from it. Trading futures and spreadbetting involves zero wealth creation and as such cannot be compared in the same way.

I havent once said that trading was evil and all I asked for was how trading can be justified from a Christian perspective and no-one has yet answered that in any meaningful way. I also said that there are forms of trading that are more than compatible with Christian teaching but that, generally, futures trading and spreadbetting was not one of them. It is the motive that is important here and not necessarily the action. For example a farmer hedging on the future price of corn is effectively taking out an insurance policy to stabilise his income. People who trade just to make a profit from others losses cannot be compared in the same way.

jpwone,

The buying and selling of bread is a "Value added" activity as all parties concerned can come away with a benefit right from the supplier of the wheat through the bakery, the shopkeeper and the person who buys it. This is not the case with trading futures or spreadbetting where many can come away much worse off with just one winner.

rglenn,

You state:

The ten commandments are the laws we should abide by if you choose to add additional ones that's up to you.

You will undoubtedly know that when asked
Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Christ answered with 2 commandments the second being:

Love thy neighbour as thyself

I would argue that spreadbetting and trading futures is the exact opposite of this as it involves putting your self first at the expense and cost of your fellow man.

As I have previously said I spent a lot of time researching many of the worlds religions and belief systems and I am quite familiar with what most are about. My interest in this discussion is not aimed at catching people out or judging them as I genuinely am interested in peoples answers to this. But I have to say that this whole thread has probably gone too far. This time in spite of what anyone may level at me I will exercise restraint and look forward to less emotive discussions with all of you on other threads.

Good Night and Profitable Trading to All,


Paul

 

[jpwone]

Just wish to make it clear that I had not intended to offend any person or belittle any religious views in this thread.

The point I was trying to make was a serious one. The speculator who is trading for money is an essential part of the process that maintains an orderly market. Without a liquid and efficient Futures market the baker would not have access to the insurance offered by this market. This would have a far bigger impact on the community as a whole than the limited impact which is a result of those that lose in the market they chose to trade. I think the important point here is that win or lose it is an individuals choice to trade these markets. They should understand both the risk of the market they trade and the purpose of the market they trade.

In the corporate world a company with international currency exposure will usually have a treasury operation tasked with ensuring the company has hedged its exposure. It is not unusual for these operations to lose money. A British company trading in the US would short the USD/GBP. If the dollar falls in relation to the pound then the treasury operation will make money on the short sale but will also be getting less GBP for each US dollar from their commercial activity. The nett result would be neutral as they would close the short to realise the profit which would compensate for the fall in value of the dollar. On the other hand the dollar could increase against the pound. Closing the short would realise a loss but the company would be getting more GBP for each dollar of commercial activity. The nett result should again be neutral even though they have lost money in the currency market.

I have used currency to illustrate the value of Futures trading as this is one of the easiest to see the benefits of this type of trade.
Winners and losers are an essential part of this market. Typically the winners are making up a shortfall in income and the losers are paying from a surplus in income. The nett result is neutral. In this example no-one is worse off, the market has performed its function and the community as a whole is better for it.

Speculators who trade for gain are a small part of this market. Amongst them will be winners and losers. Are they trying to profit by someone elses loss? My own view is no they are not. They are trying to profit from the market and the market is used to generate both profits and losses. When you take a profit from these markets it has probably come from a corporate hedge, when you take a loss you are contributing to a corporate hedge. These hedges are used to generate both profits and losses - that is their purpose.

If I as a private individual am willing to take the risk of taking a small part of the opposite side of one of these hedges should I not be allowed to do so? I see no moral dilemma here. I am not in conflict with any world views I have. On the contrary, my trading is in a very small way contributing to the efficiency of the market. I accept that I may take a loss and I understand that my purpose in trading the market is very different to the corporate treasury but is my money any less useful in the market? Somehow I just don't see the corporate treasurer really caring whether a small part of his/her hedge has been paid for by me or that I may have profited from it. What they care about is successfully hedging their own company's exposure and I, for one, enjoy and am priviliged to be able to be part of it.