The American Meltdown

[TheBramble]

Eavesdropping on citizens on a mass scale.

To be fair - the UK does have a reciprocal agreement with the US. Which means neither nation eavesdrops on its own citizenry - completely.

 

[TheBramble]

The debt ceiling of the United States is now up to how many trillions?? If you can answer that question accurately and if you can tell me how much my country owes the world???? I will send you a Libertarian coffee mug or maybe a t-shirt????/!?!?

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 04 Oct 2004 at 10:55:52 PM GMT is:

 

[TGM]

TheBramble,

Yes the UK does have a "reciprocal" agreement with the US. Which means that your MI5 and MI6 (and Phony Blair) do all our "wet work". As well as "anything else" our "reciprocal" agreement calls for?!?!?

Oh by the way, where is Wallis and Fortuna? Maybe I got up too early this morning or something. But I do not recognise the flag.

 

[TheBramble]

Yes the UK does have a "reciprocal" agreement with the US. Which means that your MI5 and MI6 (and Phony Blair) do all our "wet work". As well as "anything else" our "reciprocal" agreement calls for?!?!?

They're not my MI5 & MI6. Wallis & Futuna have a combined task force for this sort of thing which I obviously can't talk about.

Although MI6 are the primary source of overseas intelligence gathering for the UK, it's actually MI5 that snoops on the UK for its counterparts in the US (who don't exist of course). MI6 have only only just recently admitted to existing however since 1994. Everything they did before then, didn't happen either.

Oh by the way, where is Wallis and Fortuna? Maybe I got up too early this morning or something. But I do not recognise the flag.

Not a lot of people do.

http://www.paulnoll.com/Locations/visiting-Wallis-Futuna-Islands.html

 

[axthree]

Hmmm.
Countryside? Middlesex?
I thought the only countryside around there was the greenery surrounding the parade square at R.A.F. Uxbridge

 

[zambuck]

...have you heard about cotswold..?...Can I not own a cottage there..?..

...do you accept that people can have 3 or say 5 or say even nine properties in UK...or not..???

...do you know how far does middlesex goes.....??...

..hmmm...I wonder if your dusty roadmap goes that far if you know only about RAF and Uxbridge..

 

[wisestguy]

TGM ,

it's going to be very difficult to clean up the mess as you say , since the NWO has a firm grip most advanced nations on the earth.

but that's not to say that we should not expose them for what they are.

And it's the same whether it's blair or anyone else , they same people control them.


zambuck,


that's not what I said , though I see nothing wrong with a farmer and his shotgun . what's with the bazzokas ? a tad overreactive isn't it ?

the US is dumbed down because that is the way the NWO controls people en mass , a clever , thinking, questioning population is hard to dictate to.

 

[peterpr]

There is a lot of countryside crap going around now a days .....
It sems that country side campaign now stands for anything that is not in accordance with the 'wish list' and 'goverment MUST do this for us' group...

Quite frankly I don't give a damn, as the real issue has been hijacked by certain groups who claim to stand for issues 'countryside'....and they have very biased and self interest at heart....

There are many other issues that matter like help for the elderly, more hospitals, more schools etc...that is where the funds should be aimed at....not the 'Fox hunters' who lurk under the hat of 'Countryside'...

The hunting community doesn't want ANYTHING from government other than for them to GET OFF OUR BACKS and attend to matter of substance. I am faced with a government proposal that will have a devastating impact on my life. I haven't hijacked anything and there are no funding issues involved at all. It is the government who have decided to pick an unnecessary fight over a trivial issue for their own grubby internal party purposes. Those are the kinds of fights that are the nastiest - where the people being picked on are asking nothing other than to be left alone but where Big Brother decides he's going to screw them anyway - for no better reason than that he thinks he can get away with it..

I agree that hunting is a totally trivial, unimportant issue to 99% of the population except that a ban would actually be counter-productive in animal welfare terms - but for the rest it is more important than, for example football is to an ardent football fan. So tell me - do you regard new criminal legislation as unimportant and trivial as well? How about picking on some other minority you don't like and aiming new criminal legislation at them for no logical reason other than your dislike?

What do you suppose would happen were HMG to try to re-criminalise homo-sexual practices again - or deny political rights to Jews and Catholics again, or try to outlaw halal or Kosher slaughter practices? The hunting issue is no different in principle to any of those - it's just that the Labour Party, whose leader claims to want to "build a society based on justice, freedom, tolerance and respect for diversity" regards this as a 'totemic' issue (to quote Tony Banks) and is going to pursue its class war agenda come what may.

What this has got to do with 'The American Meltdown' I don't know - but it wasn't me who raised the issue of hunting - though I suspect I'm the only contibutor so far who is personally involved or knows the first thing about it.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

I am faced with a government proposal that will have a devastating impact on my life.

I am curious as to how NOT killing foxes can be devastating.

 

[peterpr]

I am curious as to how NOT killing foxes can be devastating.

It would be easy to see your question as trite, clever and insulting. Please tell me, why are you so obsessed with killing?

I don't kill foxes. Unlike shooting or fishing where everyone involved does the actual killing/torturing? themselves - one on one using technology alien to the quarry, its HOUNDS that kill foxes, not people. In similar fashion to the way foxes kill rabbits or your cat kills birds - only much quicker. In fact hunting is the nearest man can devise to natural predation short of reintroducing the wolf into these islands. Most foxes killed are either gun-shot wounded road traffic wounded, snare wounded, poisoned or otherwise in less than prime condition and would otherwise be left to extended deaths. It's called natural selection and, in large measure, it is what keeps the wild rural fox in such rude health - unlike its mange-ridden urban cousins and the protected TB ridden badger population. The fox is either killed very quickly or escapes unscathed. There are no wounded survivors.

Keeping a pack of hounds is a complex and expensive undertaking. It is financed by followers in exchange for access to land and a cross-country riding experience that is impossible to contrive in any other way. In addition experienced followers become involved in much the same way as someone watching a pride of lions stalking caribou on TV - only they are in close physical proximity if they are competent riders. A day's hunting involves one-to-one contact with up to 40 landowners/tennants to confirm permissions and ascertain the dispositions of stock etc. That should go some way to explaining why hunting is woven into the very fabric of rural life where it takes place. My own hunt has to maintain one-on-one contact with over 2,000 landowners to keep its country open. Hunting takes place on private land, with permission. It provides services to landowners at no cost to them or the tax-payer - and harms no one. It is the very essence of community and I repeat, a successful legislative ban would have a devastating impact on the lives of several tens of thousands of people most of whom would simply refuse to accept a patently unjust law.

What on earth do you think motivates over 20,000 people to turn up on Parliament Square from all over the country at less than one weeks notice? I'll tell you. It's because they consider their entire culture, heritage and way of life to be under attack for spiteful reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with genuine animal welfare.

I'll be happy to return to the thread subject if there are any takers?

 

[zambuck]

peterpr

As you have taken a reasonable tone of putting forward an argument, I must reciprocate...

Unfortunately it is part and parcel of life that changes will be there and it will be inevitable, nothing is constant....even gladiators went out of fashion as time caught up with them...No good lamenting about that.

I remember a tory politician telling an audience (in heyday of 80's)...well if there are no jobs then I would take my bike out and look for alternative.....tighten the belt..!!!

While I am no way suggesting that you do the same, why is it that such intelligent gathering like yours, cannot sit down to design a way out of it rather tham lamenting 'lost way of life'....and being disrutive to the point that I have no time for these group anymore...why be dinosaurs....

What has been the creative aspect of your group who are objecting ...dumping dead animals on Brighton roads...So how many friends you made that day??

As I have said before that even Bible says that you CAN kill animals to feed yourself and to survive and farm them as well.....I have no problem with that...and yes animals wil die on roads or are snared...

BUT it is this repugnant and sadistic part of this so called hunt that is NOT appealing...

And also no one so far has answered why do these group keep breeding the 'slow dogs' just for the hunt and nothing else..?

While you have put forward a good statistics, so far you have not convinced me that it is not possible for your group to have alternative which will allow you lot to go on hunt - without killing an animal...

 

[axthree]

...have you heard about cotswold..?...Can I not own a cottage there..?..

...do you accept that people can have 3 or say 5 or say even nine properties in UK...or not..???

...do you know how far does middlesex goes.....??...

..hmmm...I wonder if your dusty roadmap goes that far if you know only about RAF and Uxbridge..

Live quite near the Cotswolds. Understand they made their pile from manure sales.

You must be a "weekender".

On what bearing.

I'll have you know that my map also covers Gaul and Germania. The dust was caused when they were chiselling the road names into the stone.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

It would be easy to see your question as trite, clever and insulting. Please tell me, why are you so obsessed with killing?

It wasn't a question - it was a statement.

Am I obsessed with killing ? Can you tell from my one-liner ?

Let us all hope that you are devastated - chuckle !

Bring on the new law !!

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Peterpr

You can always sell your hound-dogs to a slaughter house and add the sale proceeds to your trading pot old chap.

Just trying to bring trading into the argument.

 

[zambuck]

My comments in blue italics....

Live quite near the Cotswolds. Understand they made their pile from manure sales.

Don't know how they made their pile...But good luck to them...

You must be a "weekender".

Sometimes weekend lasts for two to three weeks actually..!!

On what bearing.

Buy a map of middlesex to find the bearning...

I'll have you know that my map also covers Gaul and Germania. The dust was caused when they were chiselling the road names into the stone.

Map should cover all parts that one needs to cover as a driver...or a traveller...

 

[peterpr]

peterpr
As you have taken a reasonable tone of putting forward an argument, I must reciprocate...

Well thanks for the tone change.

The Brighton carcass dumping was a spectacular own goal. What those involved were trying to point out was that since HMG has made carcass burial illegal and put no fallen stock collection service in its place, the only such service available to farmers right now is the local hunt or leave the carcass to rot. Hunts collect and dispose of over 250,000 fallen stock every year - at little or no cost to the farmer - The DEFRA website STILL advises farmers to use hunts at the same time as it is proposing to make hunting illegal. But Labour MP's are blissfully ignorant of all this.

If it is OK to kill animals to eat them, then surely it is OK to kill others to protect stock or prevent disease (My guess is you have no problem with using warfarin on rats for example - 2-3 days to die and a very intelligent creature, but since the the organisation of rat killing is presumed not to be a pleasurable activity, people have no problem with it.

And that is the nub of the matter. The residual puritanism in us all. It is the popular but grossly false belief that people are getting pleasure from killing - the obsession with killing by those who know least about the subject is illuminating (See Salty Gibbon's posts)

You accuse hunting people of being sadistic. I suggest that says more about what is going on in your head than anything else. You do not know what is going on in my head - you assume - and you no doubt base your assumption on your own motivations and demons. So here's a bit of the Bible from me "judge not lest thou be judged". I no more get sadistic pleasure from hunting than does an abbatoir worker or someone who eats meat and neither does anyone I know.

As for 'breeding slow dogs' that is rubbish. I won't burden the thread with why but, quite happy to take up privately if you are really interested.

The thing that is fundamentally wrong about this government's action is that it is attacking an allegedly unpopular minority, not for any science based reason, but for grubby political reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with animal welfare.

If they can get away with it over hunting then they can get away with it over any other issue where the minority involved has been successfully demonised.

We don't live in a tolerant free society. We live in a puritanical, bossy, intolerant nanny state where government feels it has a divine right to interfere in every aspect of private life.

Here's an interesting link on 'The American Meltdown' for those fed up with foxhunting:
http://www.safehaven.com/article-2037.htm

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Peterpr - you're not really Prince Charles are you ?

You do appear to possess the same level of arrogance.

Tally ho !!

 

[Mayfly]

Out of Town

Anatole Kaletsky is quite sound on this issue, but he hardly gives the antis both barrels; nevertheless you can safely conclude that their arguments are basically bollox and humbug! You can read more here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1061-1264544,00.html

Some background material about the Tony Martin debacle for the benefit of our cousins overseas:

http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/

Some local interest and another rough “diamond” (and local charmer), who’s dad wishes to be a local borough Councillor: http://www.guardian.co.uk/dome/article/0,2763,656351,00.html

You’ll be getting the idea, then?

HTH

Cheers

Mayfly

 

[peterpr]

Peterpr - you're not really Prince Charles are you ?

You do appear to possess the same level of arrogance.

Tally ho !!

It's arrogant to defend yourself is it?

And have you any idea what 'Tally ho' means. Or is it just another example of the insulting juvenile ignorance that you appear to possess in spades?

You're not a teenager are you?

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Just take your hound-dogs off to the abbatoir and be quiet.