Thatcher

Agree, we are on the same page there.



I'd disagree on it working , just not very well, it was broken.
3 day week.
No electricity.
Rubbish in the streets.
No burials.
Poor quality industrial output.
Uneconomic mines.

That is broken.
You still have not said exactly how that could have been tackled
any other way.
Heath and Callaghan tried an approach more along the lines of your suggestion.
you may disagree with the negotiation tactics,it failed nevertheless.
Wilson wasn't tough enough which probably helped pave the way to winter of
discontent by bolstering union confidence:
Winter of Discontent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also agree with what you are saying that trade unions needed a strong response and indeed Maggie probably at that time the only tough cookie to dish it. But and a big BUT is manufacturing industry needed to be saved not bludgeoned.

She went way too far!

Her cabinet were fodder to her delusional ideals. She listened to no one but one or two favourites.
Like the trade unions she needed a reality check. Nigel Lawson, Michael Heseltine, Geoffrey Howe, Kenneth Clarke not treacherous at all. More like heroes. They weren't alone either. :idea:

She thought she was bigger than the party. She forgot she was elected. Talk of treachery and back stabbing is OT. Her cabinet saved the UK from a very power hungry woman towards the end.

Perhaps like Churchill she was a great leader much needed at war time but not for peace. (y)

She will not be forgotten but hopefully remembered for the right reasons and not pampered with all these adulations which are untrue and do not resonate well with half the popullation.
 

I am not disagreeing that times were tough. The demands were divorced of reality, but then inflation was divorced from sensibility, so what do you expect? You have a government that has made a series of ****-ups that have in part led to a situation in which the some of the populace is being 'unreasonable'. So the workers are expected to just put up with it because of tough economic conditions, while the politicians they pay for and elected continue to f*** it up time after time for them? Has anything really changed on that front? I have a distrust and a lack of respect for most politicians, so I am obviously biased, but it seems that things are still pretty much the same in that regard.

It seems fair to say the unions needed to be reined in a bit (or a lot!), and so some compliment Thatcher on that, but unfortunately the ultimate p!ss-taker was not the unions it was and is the government, and as BBmac correctly pointed out so long ago, a huge problem is in not understanding exponentiality and debt and despite the fact those are what should have been reined in, both seem to have grown, with no signs of being reined in.
 
I am not disagreeing that times were tough. The demands were divorced of reality, but then inflation was divorced from sensibility, so what do you expect? You have a government that has made a series of ****-ups that have in part led to a situation in which the some of the populace is being 'unreasonable'. So the workers are expected to just put up with it because of tough economic conditions, while the politicians they pay for and elected continue to f*** it up time after time for them? Has anything really changed on that front? I have a distrust and a lack of respect for most politicians, so I am obviously biased, but it seems that things are still pretty much the same in that regard.

It seems fair to say the unions needed to be reined in a bit (or a lot!), and so some compliment Thatcher on that, but unfortunately the ultimate p!ss-taker was not the unions it was and is the government, and as BBmac correctly pointed out so long ago, a huge problem is in not understanding exponentiality and debt and despite the fact those are what should have been reined in, both seem to have grown, with no signs of being reined in.

I believe that no government can, now, control the debt spiral in which we find ourselves. It's exacty like the Visa card that gets out of control by the unwary.

No government knows what to do and, simply, passes the buck to the next. We are no longer the nation that exports what everyone else wants, to the extent that debt is kept under control and so all that we have, to any important degree, is a financial industy that uses the very thing that is killing the country, debt, as a means of self-enrichment.

How wrong I was, along with millions of others, Thatcher included, to go down the privatisation route, willy-nilly, as if it was the complete ansewr to our problems.

That is what happens when one side, the unions, in this case, gets out of control and is replaced by a sector that is greedy and corrupt. Legislation seems, unfortunately, a necessary evil- The service companies, ie. water, gas, electricity should never be in private hands.

In Spain, we have many, serious problems, ones that I doubt, now, whether we can get out of in great part, BTW. due to debt and corruption in the financial and political sectors.

What seems to be benign, though, apart from one-day manifestations are the public sector industries because there is accord between the interested parties, I suppose, Even public transport strikes are dampened by minimum services.

What is it about the UK population that damages itself in this way?
 
I also agree with what you are saying that trade unions needed a strong response and indeed Maggie probably at that time the only tough cookie to dish it. But and a big BUT is manufacturing industry needed to be saved not bludgeoned.

She went way too far!


She will not be forgotten but hopefully remembered for the right reasons and not pampered with all these adulations which are untrue and do not resonate well with half the popullation.

Several attempts at saving BL and its later renamed forms were taken under Thatcher.
So that argument does not apply to BL at least.
British Leyland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The mines are a different story.
They were uneconomic.
Drift mining (deep shaft) of coal still accounts for 60% of global production.
Coal mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Open cast is relatively new in comparison its current form, due to the heavy machinery needed.
Open-pit mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mining - New World Encyclopedia

The UK still does produce coal - the vast majority is now open cast.
Open-pit coal mining in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Its more efficient and less labour intensive - that's the hard economic truth.
New techniques and machinery along with pay were the drivers for the
UK coal strikes.

So as far as those directly affected by those changes, yes it went too far.
For the greater good and economic well being of the UK, it was unavoidable.

Obviously making hard faced decisions such as those is going to create division.
Most people did agree with it, or they wouldn't have voted for her 3 times.

Thatcher did do what she could for BL within economic reason.
The mines simply did not pay their way - resistance to mechanised methods
and labour costs being the primary factors.
 
I am not disagreeing that times were tough. The demands were divorced of reality, but then inflation was divorced from sensibility, so what do you expect? You have a government that has made a series of ****-ups that have in part led to a situation in which the some of the populace is being 'unreasonable'. So the workers are expected to just put up with it because of tough economic conditions, while the politicians they pay for and elected continue to f*** it up time after time for them? Has anything really changed on that front? I have a distrust and a lack of respect for most politicians, so I am obviously biased, but it seems that things are still pretty much the same in that regard.

It seems fair to say the unions needed to be reined in a bit (or a lot!), and so some compliment Thatcher on that, but unfortunately the ultimate p!ss-taker was not the unions it was and is the government, and as BBmac correctly pointed out so long ago, a huge problem is in not understanding exponentiality and debt and despite the fact those are what should have been reined in, both seem to have grown, with no signs of being reined in.

Yes, agree to an extent.
It is unfair to lay all the blame at the door of 70's UK govt.
They were dealing with global factors out of their control
Nixon and OPEC primarily.
Whether the economic situation of the UK in the 70's could have been avoided
is another debate.
Labour and the Conservatives failed at the time.

The crux of the argument is this - once those conditions were created,
the fallout needed dealing with, it could not be allowed to continue.

If govt. had covered the pay demands, they would have been flat broke, bust out.
As it was the UK still went to the IMF cap in hand for a £2.3 billion rescue package,
how much would it have been in the future if wage demands had not been
dealt with in a hardline manner.
There simply wasn't enough in the treasury pot.

United Kingdom national debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes it is a fair point that these decisions decimated the heavy industrial areas
of the UK.
Its also a fair point that the business development quangos set up to promote
growth in these areas only worked for as long as the incentive grants were
available to big business, once they dried up, a lot of them re-located.

The alternatives to that were industries not being sustainable without state aid,
with the IMF implications given earlier.
The UK could not afford a continuation of the status quo.
 
Last edited:
Several attempts at saving BL and its later renamed forms were taken under Thatcher.
So that argument does not apply to BL at least.
British Leyland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The mines are a different story.
They were uneconomic.
Drift mining (deep shaft) of coal still accounts for 60% of global production.
Coal mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Open cast is relatively new in comparison its current form, due to the heavy machinery needed.
Open-pit mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mining - New World Encyclopedia

The UK still does produce coal - the vast majority is now open cast.
Open-pit coal mining in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Its more efficient and less labour intensive - that's the hard economic truth.
New techniques and machinery along with pay were the drivers for the
UK coal strikes.

So as far as those directly affected by those changes, yes it went too far.
For the greater good and economic well being of the UK, it was unavoidable.

Obviously making hard faced decisions such as those is going to create division.
Most people did agree with it, or they wouldn't have voted for her 3 times.

Thatcher did do what she could for BL within economic reason.
The mines simply did not pay their way - resistance to mechanised methods
and labour costs being the primary factors.

We are going round in circles.

UK leadership clearly failed with our manufaturing. Do you agree management was largely responsible for its failure and not simply 'just' the unions?
- Italy has Fiat
- Spain has SEAT
- France has Peugot and Renault
- Germany has BMW, Merc, Audi, Porsche
- Germany has revived the Mini & the Skoda
- Japanese manufacturers - operate from the UK
- UK has ....?????

How does British labour manufacturing costs compare to these countries? Ofcourse there is the whole caboodle of management/planning/design too but are they not important in the manufacture and sale of cars?

25 coal mines were operational. Do you not consider perhaps that only 5 could have been shutdown to show unions & workers government was serious instead of hacking all? If necessary - yes invest in better technology. Do you not think the social costs should have been considered when shutting cutting these down?

I do not accept there were no other options eg: new investment, mergers, gradual wind down? Did we consider appointing Germans to lead, Italians to head design, Japanese to bring in their skills?

Approximately 2000-3000 parts go to manufacturing cars. On a cost-benefit analysis shutting down car manufacturer impacted many many engineering firms producing the nuts & bolts and parts for these cars.

I'm still amazed that such an important decisions impacting the whole nation and national interest was treated with such contempt by people touting the virtues of free market with no due consideration to its impact?

Do you not agree that the £500m subsidy may have been good value compared to social costs inflicted on to communities with respect to BL?


She got elected three times. Let's celebrate our strong leader.

Blair got elected three times too. Let's celebrate him too, another strong leader.

Somethings simply don't add up :rolleyes:
 
25 coal mines were operational. Do you not consider perhaps that only 5 could have been shutdown to show unions & workers government was serious instead of hacking all? If necessary - yes invest in better technology. Do you not think the social costs should have been considered when shutting cutting these down?

I do not accept there were no other options eg: new investment, mergers, gradual wind down? Did we consider appointing Germans to lead, Italians to head design, Japanese to bring in their skills?
What are you on about, Harold Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher :LOL:
Wilson closed more coal mines than Thatcher Left Watch
Cuts in public spending were essential, it was part of the IMF bailout in 76.
United Kingdom national debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are going round in circles.

UK leadership clearly failed with our manufaturing. Do you agree management was largely responsible for its failure and not simply 'just' the unions?

Somethings simply don't add up :rolleyes:

Yes, we are going round in circles, mostly because you can't even
remember or reference earlier parts of the conversation.
I have already answered that question - link & quote below.

I was wondering when you would start using the rolleyes...
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/171342-thatcher-28.html#post2112838
The issue is also that unions did have a say in calling strikes and pay demands.
No one is saying BL management played no part in the BL debacle.
The whole entity was rotten to the core.

Sorry mate, but here ends the discussion with me.
Its a pointless waste of time if you can't even remember the discussion
or get your facts straight.

I'm starting to understand how New_Trader feels in a discussion with you.
Its futile, an opinionated discussion is bad enough, without any factual
basis it truly is self defeating.
I don't know if its a wind up, or you are unaware, either way I'm out.
No hard feelings :)
 
What are you on about, Harold Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher :LOL:
Wilson closed more coal mines than Thatcher Left Watch
Cuts in public spending were essential, it was part of the IMF bailout in 76.
United Kingdom national debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yes, we are going round in circles, mostly because you can't even
remember or reference earlier parts of the conversation.
I have already answered that question - link & quote below.

I was wondering when you would start using the rolleyes...
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/171342-thatcher-28.html#post2112838


Sorry mate, but here ends the discussion with me.
Its a pointless waste of time if you can't even remember the discussion
or get your facts straight.

I'm starting to understand how New_Trader feels in a discussion with you.
Its futile, an opinionated discussion is bad enough, without any factual
basis it truly is self defeating.
I don't know if its a wind up, or you are unaware, either way I'm out.
No hard feelings :)



Likewise! (y)
 
Up on the balcony of the National Gallery, a not wholly sober lady in a green ballgown teased police by dancing on the outside of the railings. Suddenly, insanely, she dived into the crowd from 20ft up. Fortunately, they caught her.
She turned out to be 39-year-old harpist Rosie Nobbs. Explaining her antipathy, she said: ‘I was a milk monitor and thought it was my fault that the milk stopped coming. I had a responsibility and she took it away from me. 'I haven’t taken any work seriously since.’


Read more: Let's start a conga! bawled one plummy voice. The angriest turbo-Trot would've had to admit it was a pretty feeble protest: Robert Hardman joins the Trafalgar Square party | Mail Online
 
Up on the balcony of the National Gallery, a not wholly sober lady in a green ballgown teased police by dancing on the outside of the railings. Suddenly, insanely, she dived into the crowd from 20ft up. Fortunately, they caught her.
She turned out to be 39-year-old harpist Rosie Nobbs. Explaining her antipathy, she said: ‘I was a milk monitor and thought it was my fault that the milk stopped coming. I had a responsibility and she took it away from me. 'I haven’t taken any work seriously since.’


Read more: Let's start a conga! bawled one plummy voice. The angriest turbo-Trot would've had to admit it was a pretty feeble protest: Robert Hardman joins the Trafalgar Square party | Mail Online

What is her harping on about a rosy knob got to do with anything?
She was just dreaming on.........:sleep:
 
Surely over the top celebrations.
Full military honours ? She wasn't even in the military.
Waste of money.
Stupid cow !
 
Surely over the top celebrations.
Full military honours ? She wasn't even in the military.
Waste of money.
Stupid cow !

I was no fan of thatcher, she was a silly deluded self promoting fool, and no different to most other politicians but at least she provided some entertainment along the way.

Having said that, we seam to be stuck with a system where the majority of the public needs some sort of acknowledged leader, even if its only a puppet manipulated by more shadowy figures.

If that's the case, the position should be treated with some respect at least, and I'm sure even the UK can still afford the odd state funeral, the cost is chump change compared to the billions wasted annually on other nonsense.

It's just theatre really, and the least they can do is dress up the actors in pretty colorful costumes. They should spunk a decent wedge up the wall and give here a decent send off.
 
I understand the comments and statements here ......

I was lucky enough to profit from what Mags did in the 80's based in london and working for a trading company so i cant complain and bought my first House as well.....

Shes marmite .........you either love her or hate her ...and if we are not careful her Funeral alongside the implimentation of the £500 benefits ceiling is going to give us a week we wont forget

Buckle up
N
 
Historically she is in great company. The mob threw mud at the Duke of Wellington's funeral !! She would have enjoyed seeing the militant rabble defecating in the streets. If Dave Dipstick had any sense it would have been a quiet family affair.
 
But she won two wars, I suppose that's reason enough.

I presume that the outcome of those wars where influenced by quite a few people other than margeret thatcher ?. For example, the military personnel and their commanding officers brave enough to be fighting on the ground, and possibly even strategic decisions by military personnel from behind the safety of a desk in Whitehall.

I suppose politicians do play some role, she could have sent them off to fight without basic equipment on the grounds of cost etc, but in general, politicians are more likely to have a negative effect on outcome by meddling in things they have little or no understanding of, or failing to provide adequate resources.

I'm sure that a visit by a countries leader might improve short term morale, but I really would question the longer term benefits. I'm not a soldier, nor am I ever likely to fight in a war, but I do think that I'd be happier knowing that I was fighting with the full backing of the majority of the publics support, rather than fighting on the say so of a half dozen politicians.

I suppose in summary I'm arguing that politicians tend to lose wars, rather than them, with the odd exception, but people seam to treat thatcher with the same respect that they attribute to wartime leaders such as Churchill. I'm not really qualified to judge, but on a good day, Churchill might have half convinced me that he had a point of view worth considering. I struggle to recall any occasion where thatcher wasnt just spouting simplistic nonsense.
 
Top