Spreadbetting may not be tax free!

Markyf

Newbie
Messages
7
Likes
0
Spread betting is essentially gambling, and it is generally accepted following a line of tax cases that gambling winnings are not subject to income tax, although the statutory authority for this is somewhat weak. Section 1(1) Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 provides:

Income Tax shall be charged in accordance with the provisions of the Income Tax Acts in respect of all…profits or gains…

The main tax cases on this subject concerned firstly an individual who made his living from betting on horse races from his home, and his profits in this respect were held to be not taxable. On the other hand, two people who attended horse races on a regular basis and both made and laid bets were held to be taxable on their profits, and this somewhat contradicts the first mentioned case!

The true reason for such winnings not being subject to income tax is that clients of bookmakers, considered as a class, will generate more losses than profits, and any attempt by the Revenue to subject to tax the profits of an individual who does make a profit would lead to them having to allow the losses of others, thus leading to a net diminution in tax revenues.

Also, some activities are so inherently uncommercial, so as to be so different from a trading type of activity, that the profits therefrom are not subject to income tax.

It is, however, difficult to see how these principles relate to spread betting profits, as I do not see how taking uncovered positions with spread betting firms should be any more uncommercial than taking uncovered positions in one form or another of financial derivatives.

Also, the clients of spread betting firms (considered as a class) in a market following a consistent trend, may enjoy a positive expectation of profit.

The profits from spread betting are however not taxable, and the reason for the difference in treatment has been stated to be that financial derivatives are real in that they may lead to the underlying contract being implemented.

This distinction is not very persuasive however if we look at, for example, a call option on the performance of the FTSE100 which is not capable of leading to the passing of title in the constituent shares of that index.

However, the principle that profits from spread betting are tax free is sufficiently entrenched in the tax system that it can be assumed, for the time being, to be correct.

The fact that a significant volume of such transaction is undertaken should not alter this fact. It has been held in the Court of Appeal that “it is not a right test in law to try and apply the touchstone of habit or system as to whether or not a trade was carried on.” I have it on good authority that the Inland Revenue are unlikely to contend that the profits of systematic spread betting are taxable and, even if they do, they are unlikely to succeed.

As the basis for the non-taxability of spread betting winnings is somewhat nebulous, it must be recognised that there is a clear possibility that, if an individual were to carry on a trade of dealing in financial derivatives which was closely bound up with bets placed with spread betting firms, a court might hold that the profits from spread betting were taxable.

This point can be illustrated by a tax case in which a club owner played three-card brag with some members in a back room; Burdge v Pyne, Chancery Division 1968. The club owner was found to be taxable on his card winnings as these were held to be ancillary to his main business activity.

In the case of an individual who entered into financial derivative contracts which effectively hedged spread bet contracts, it would be difficult to resist the conclusion that the two activities were as a matter of fact not interlocked thereby bringing the spreadbetting profits within the charge to income tax.

Mark Faherty - Trio Accountancy Services Ltd
 
Order, order please...

Isnt there a case that although the bets themselves are free of tax, if that is an individuals Primary source of Income then that income is liable for tax, even though the bets themselves were free of such charge? er sort of thing ?

likened to this below...

I mean, hookers in holland pay income tax ? although the act of sex , as far as i humbly know ,is not liable for a tax levy ? (if your married however, theres a bloody huge stealth tax coming from the other half usually though) .

Although maybe tax on sex is on its way, after all in this country ,today, you need clarity of consent before said deed takes place, hardly mills and boon is it.....

"sign here love, and brace yourself" .

Worlds gone bonkers ..
 
This distinction is not very persuasive however if we look at, for example, a call option on the performance of the FTSE100 which is not capable of leading to the passing of title in the constituent shares of that index.

The underlying instrument of a FTSE100 Index option is not the FTSE100 index however, it is the monetray value of the index * £10

The case for the defence rests m'lud.
 
Not so

Prostitutes are liable to tax on their profit in the UK. There was a test case to determine which Case of Schedule D tax it should be under some decades ago; Case 1, Trade or Business, or Case 2, Profession or Vocation. Although it was cited that prostitution was the oldest known profession it was found to be a trade or business.

On your first point, that argument doesn't work. If a source of income is not taxable it does not become taxable just because it is your only means of support. If that were the case then income from foster carering, commercial woodlands, ISA's, investment bonds etc would all be at risk.
 
Prostitutes are liable to tax on their profit in the UK. There was a test case to determine which Case of Schedule D tax it should be under some decades ago; Case 1, Trade or Business, or Case 2, Profession or Vocation. Although it was cited that prostitution was the oldest known profession it was found to be a trade or business.

On your first point, that argument doesn't work. If a source of income is not taxable it does not become taxable just because it is your only means of support. If that were the case then income from foster carering, commercial woodlands, ISA's, investment bonds etc would all be at risk.


hmmm yes see your point but have the Gov. exempted specifically the foster care , they have exempted those, now have they exempted income sourced from spreadbets ?

I dont think they have, and whether or not they close it or not I dont know..... but its an interesting case and point... so hookers in the UK pay tax, but sex is tax free, so why not tax the income from spreadbetting gains although ,like sex and the hookers, the bet or the sex is not taxable, however income derived from it is ?

what i mean is if a person is a Professional spreadbetter, tax him.....
 
hmmm yes see your point but have the Gov. exempted specifically the foster care , they have exempted those, now have they exempted income sourced from spreadbets ?

I dont think they have, and whether or not they close it or not I dont know..... but its an interesting case and point... so hookers in the UK pay tax, but sex is tax free, so why not tax the income from spreadbetting gains although ,like sex and the hookers, the bet or the sex is not taxable, however income derived from it is ?

what i mean is if a person is a Professional spreadbetter, tax him.....

Possibly as the hooker occupies the role of bookie, as does the spreadbet shop, and they will both be taxed.
 
Possibly as the hooker occupies the role of bookie, as does the spreadbet shop, and they will both be taxed.

yes i see , a client can withdraw from the hooker and lose interest. But a client with a bookie can withdraw a regular income ? now i see a prob if a professional spreadbetter whose sole source of income is from betting is that his business must be legitimised by the revenue and all the possibilities of offsetting loses etc, as with any business, will open a floodgate if they do tax betters ?
 
If the government were to tax gambling, and that is what spreadbetting is, then they would have to allow tax relief for gambling losses - see earlier in my thread. There is no specific exemption in the taxes acts that gambling is tax free, again mentioned in my thread, but no-one in the UK has been taxed yet on gambling winnings, and there are plenty of those, just go to Cheltenham in March.

Sex is free between two consenting adults, as is a massage and making a cup of tea for the other, however, if the massage or tea-making is carried on commercially then it becomes taxable.
 
If the government were to tax gambling, and that is what spreadbetting is, then they would have to allow tax relief for gambling losses - see earlier in my thread. There is no specific exemption in the taxes acts that gambling is tax free, again mentioned in my thread, but no-one in the UK has been taxed yet on gambling winnings, and there are plenty of those, just go to Cheltenham in March.

Sex is free between two consenting adults, as is a massage and making a cup of tea for the other, however, if the massage or tea-making is carried on commercially then it becomes taxable.

Can a person meet a definition of betting commercially ? would have to define what commercially is, and are there not spreadbetters who would hand and glove commercial?
 
Interesting thing is, and I know very little of the how and wherefore, but the yanks manage to tax gambling without it becoming a nightmare for the IRS, and I think we can safely presume yank gamblers have no more propensity to win than any other nationality.
 
If the government were to tax gambling, and that is what spreadbetting is, then they would have to allow tax relief for gambling losses - see earlier in my thread. There is no specific exemption in the taxes acts that gambling is tax free, again mentioned in my thread, but no-one in the UK has been taxed yet on gambling winnings, and there are plenty of those, just go to Cheltenham in March.

Sex is free between two consenting adults, as is a massage and making a cup of tea for the other, however, if the massage or tea-making is carried on commercially then it becomes taxable.

from the last sentence, commercially would be a sort of well-defined, planned, continuous activity rather than the occasional trade here and there?
I think we all aspire to be commercial.

I would think that paying taxes ceases to become a problem once a trader becomes good enough that they feel that a full-time income is a viable proposition.

I would also want to have my books, seminars, charting packages, trips to traders expos in California as tax-deductible as they form part of my professional activities and on-going tasks to maintain my proficiency.

(the comparisons between hooking and trading reminds me of:
"Dont tell my mom I trade futures. Shes thinks I play piano in a whorehouse." saying )

PS: good to have an accountant on these boards with advice and insight.
 
When originally deciding whether or not an activity constitutes either trading, the profits from which are subject to income tax, or whether they are windfall gains subject to capital gains tax, this will be decided by reference to:

1. The subject matter of the realisation.
2. The length of the period of ownership.
3. The frequency or number of transactions by the same person.
4. Supplementary work on or in connection with the property realised.
5. The circumstances that were responsible for the realisation.
6. Motive.

With spreadbetting there is no subject matter or property, one is merely taking an uncovered position with no underlying asset; what has been bought or sold, when is it being delivered? Identical to putting a fiver on the three legged nag in the 5:45.
 
Hi Markyf and welcome aboard T2W.

With spreadbetting there is no subject matter or property, one is merely taking an uncovered position with no underlying asset; what has been bought or sold, when is it being delivered?

One could say the underlying asset is whatever the spread bet is based on, e.g. the S&P 500 index. But I take your point that with a spread bet one does not buy or own anything, merely bet on the price movement of something else.

But surely this also applies to cash-settled futures trading, on which, after a long consultation with the IR, I pay income tax. These contracts only have a notional value and are based on the value of another product too. This makes filling in the turnover box on the self-assessment form somewhat diffcult as I don't have any!

I think it was the other points 2-6 you mention which swayed their decision, i.e very short, very frequent, none, my discretion, profit respectively.

Interesting point about deductions trendie. I know one can knock off charting, data feeds and commission, i.e. running costs directly associated with the daily business of trading, but had not considered books, seminars and travel at all, not that I really spend money on any of those. Markyf do you think it would be hard to prove this sort of thing was a genuine deductible expense? Where do they draw the line ... could I deduct, say, costs for a shrink who helped me with psychological issues that affect my trading? Sorry to wander off topic a bit.
 
History

Interesting thing is, and I know very little of the how and wherefore, but the yanks manage to tax gambling without it becoming a nightmare for the IRS, and I think we can safely presume yank gamblers have no more propensity to win than any other nationality.

The US do not have a lumbering income tax system dating back to the Napoleonic War with all its encumbered legislation and case law. Income tax was repealed in the US in 1872 and not re-introduced until 1913 with a fresh system. The US system requires that gamblers add up their wins and losses separately. They may claim loss relief but only up to a maximum of their wins.

However, it still remains that gambling is not taxed in the UK, unless linked with a trade under the Burdge v Pyne case, and remains so until there is a change in the legislation.
 
Hi Markyf and welcome aboard T2W.
But surely this also applies to cash-settled futures trading, on which, after a long consultation with the IR, I pay income tax. These contracts only have a notional value and are based on the value of another product too.

I agree, this is referred to in my main thread:

"The profits from spread betting are however not taxable, and the reason for the difference in treatment has been stated to be that financial derivatives are real in that they may lead to the underlying contract being implemented.

This distinction is not very persuasive however if we look at, for example, a call option on the performance of the FTSE100 which is not capable of leading to the passing of title in the constituent shares of that index."

Bit of an enigma, BUT, HMRC has accepted that trading in Futures, CFD's etc is taxable, either as income or capital gains depending upon each situation.
 
The whole point of spreadbetting is being missed here.

If spreadbetting was (or became) taxable then the firms would lose their edge. Thats why they have a powerful lobby. Thats why they donate funds etc etc.

If winnings lost there 'tax free' status then there would be little function for a series of companies which simply added a cost to trading..... would there?

Steve.
 
I think it is even more fundamental than that, if speadbetting profits are taxed then spreadbetting losses would be able to be offset against tax. As more people lose than win then there would be little to be gained by doing this for the Treasury.


Paul
 
The general principle is if the gambling is part of some wider business then it might be taxable.

For example teaching (and charging) others how to spread bet. A guy fills a room with 30 students who pay 500 quid each. The tutor places example spread bets during the course and makes 5,000 in profits.
Those profits might be considered part of the tuition business and might be assessed as taxable by the IR.

In reality these are all hypothetical cases where people spread bet as part of some bigger business, i doubt if this happens much or at all.

In reality nobody will mix and match Spread bets with real derivative trading as the advantage is always to spread exclusively if possible or otherwise use derivatives exclusively if spread bets are not suitable.

You also cannot magically hedge all (or even most) winning trades into a spread bet account and leave the losers in the derivatives account as you never know how a trade is going to turn out.
 
Last edited:
Top