spreadbetting & calculations

[wellray]

Hi, I'm with IG.
While the market was closed I entered a stop order to buy at 2656 on Nov 3 on Kerry foods (to trade the breakout) on the Dec contract with a spread of 19 points.
Later that day I check to confirm and the order has been filled at 2699, 43 points above my order level!!

On the chart I'm looking at the mid price to calculate s/r and stop levels, so now my stop is 43 points above where I want it to be too as the stop is placed a number of points from entry rather than a particular number. I've emailed IG several times but they reckon the market was moving quickly and basically tough luck.

I've previously had bad prices come through resulting in trades being stopped out in error with IG but they always corrected it. Can I get an experienced view on this pls?

 

[ns1000]

Looks a bit ****, but not indefensible. Ask them for a time and sales chart showing the bid / offer when the position was filled. If it was trading at that price at teh time the trade was booked, then it is just tough luck - as long as IG have filled you promptly. I'm afraid opening on stop is going to result in fills like this though - you said yourself that you were looking to trade the breakout; it's gapped against you by the look of it. You cvan of course move your stop to whereever you want it.

 

[SanMiguel]

Yeah, if it gaps overnight then you will be filled at the best level regardless of where you placed your stop. This is the danger of trading with leverage overnight. You can use guaranteed stops but then you pay a hefty percentage in commissions.

 

[wellray]

Yeah, if it gaps overnight then you will be filled at the best level regardless of where you placed your stop. This is the danger of trading with leverage overnight. You can use guaranteed stops but then you pay a hefty percentage in commissions.

Sure but it didn't - it opened at 2563 at 0800 and moved up very quickly, i.e. in <3mins to 2690. it looks like they filled it at the highest possible point - it didn't get any higher that day
Is there an order you can use which will open only if the level specified is hit?

 

[SanMiguel]

Sure but it didn't - it opened at 2563 at 0800 and moved up very quickly, i.e. in <3mins to 2690. it looks like they filled it at the highest possible point - it didn't get any higher that day
Is there an order you can use which will open only if the level specified is hit?

Did you ask them?
43 points in 3 mins doesn;t like something that a system should have a problem filling.

 

[wellray]

Did you ask them?
43 points in 3 mins doesn;t like something that a system should have a problem filling.

I've just had a few emails back and forth with them, but they're pretty vague, ie they don't show or reference the actual chart and don't include the original question.
I've asked them for a chart so waiting now - I'll maybe call.

another Q. if the spread is 18, and you're buying at 2656, does the trade get triggered when the buy price & NOT the Mid Price (what you'd be looking at on charts) hits that number (?),

likewise when you're selling or stopped out, it's when the sell price hits the stop- right?
I mean when you're marking out your trend lines, s/r etc. that's on the mid price

 

[scose-no-doubt]

it looks like they filled it at the highest possible point

In my experience TBE.

Not exactly advice but I've learned the hard way not to put myself in a position whereby a broker can do this to me.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

yes you're better off thinking in terms of bid/ask rather than what the chart shows. Thats your orders and their spread.

 

[tomorton]

The SB firms' tick charts show a plot of the mid-price: This is the mid-point between the buy and sell levels (bid-ask spread), but on the same instrument, this could have been calculated as the mid-point of a 2pt spread or a 200pt spread - the charts would not indicate which was aplicable at those two particualr times. Spreads do tend to open out at volatile yimes otr outside underlying market trading hours.

This means that if you're aiming to buy an instrument with a spread of 455-465, and your TA on the chart predicts an entry signal at 460 (mid-price), your order should be to buy at 465 or above.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

some charts have the option to plot bid or ask rather than mid. Worth having a look

 

[TonyQ]

Unfortunately, a Stop order becomes a Market order when the stop is hit. But that differential is ridiculous. I used IG in the past but had too many such events with them for comfort, so I closed my account. Remember, in SB it is they who decide the spreads and the prices so they can change them at will. And so they did with me years back. Sounds as though they haven't changed at all. Maybe you should though.

Hi, I'm with IG.
While the market was closed I entered a stop order to buy at 2656 on Nov 3 on Kerry foods (to trade the breakout) on the Dec contract with a spread of 19 points.
Later that day I check to confirm and the order has been filled at 2699, 43 points above my order level!!

On the chart I'm looking at the mid price to calculate s/r and stop levels, so now my stop is 43 points above where I want it to be too as the stop is placed a number of points from entry rather than a particular number. I've emailed IG several times but they reckon the market was moving quickly and basically tough luck.

I've previously had bad prices come through resulting in trades being stopped out in error with IG but they always corrected it. Can I get an experienced view on this pls?

 

[wellray]

The SB firms' tick charts show a plot of the mid-price: This is the mid-point between the buy and sell levels (bid-ask spread), but on the same instrument, this could have been calculated as the mid-point of a 2pt spread or a 200pt spread - the charts would not indicate which was aplicable at those two particualr times. Spreads do tend to open out at volatile yimes otr outside underlying market trading hours.

This means that if you're aiming to buy an instrument with a spread of 455-465, and your TA on the chart predicts an entry signal at 460 (mid-price), your order should be to buy at 465 or above.

Thanks
And then if you think your stop should be at 398, you should put it at 393 to avoid it being tripped early by the sell price.
btw I called IG and they've agreed to send me the bloomberg chart. They also confirmed there is no order type you can set that will only trigger if your level gets hit!!

 

[SanMiguel]

Unfortunately, a Stop order becomes a Market order when the stop is hit. But that differential is ridiculous. I used IG in the past but had too many such events with them for comfort, so I closed my account. Remember, in SB it is they who decide the spreads and the prices so they can change them at will. And so they did with me years back. Sounds as though they haven't changed at all. Maybe you should though.

Listen, they have a duty to show you what the underlying market was at the time and any reason for a delayed fill - I suggest you ask.
If your stop is at 6000 with an 18 pt spread, then when the ask hits 6000 you will be filled, this is when the bid = 5982 so as you say it depends on whether your chart is bid/ask.
I've never had any problems with brokers other than during news and that us understandable. Any times I have had dodgy looking fills, they have always refunded them or reinstated the trade.

 

[wellray]

Unfortunately, a Stop order becomes a Market order when the stop is hit. But that differential is ridiculous. I used IG in the past but had too many such events with them for comfort, so I closed my account. Remember, in SB it is they who decide the spreads and the prices so they can change them at will. And so they did with me years back. Sounds as though they haven't changed at all. Maybe you should though.

Who are you with TonyQ?

I received a Bloomberg screen grab from IG, however it wasn't an OHLC, instead it was a line for the whole day so difficult to see when the order was filled although, it did look like the price rose quickly rather than gapped up, which made me consider the following question:

What is a reasonable time for an order to be filled on the open for a tiny number of shares in a liquid market? Is it < 1min?

 

[wellray]

some charts have the option to plot bid or ask rather than mid. Worth having a look

Hi yes, I can look at bid / ask / mid, but basically for me the Mid is the real price and I use this TA (you've got to use one of them). I just need to add half the spread on for the buy level and the other half at the sell level to make sure these work as I intend them to.

 

[wellray]

Listen, they have a duty to show you what the underlying market was at the time and any reason for a delayed fill - I suggest you ask.
If your stop is at 6000 with an 18 pt spread, then when the ask hits 6000 you will be filled, this is when the bid = 5982 so as you say it depends on whether your chart is bid/ask.
I've never had any problems with brokers other than during news and that us understandable. Any times I have had dodgy looking fills, they have always refunded them or reinstated the trade.

Thanks mate, who do you trade with?
This looks like a dodgy fill as the Bloomberg shows it peaked at 2687 and with 8.5 for 1/2 the spread thats 2695.5. It looks wrong but I'm not interested in 3.5 pips tho!

 

[TonyQ]

Who are you with TonyQ?

I received a Bloomberg screen grab from IG, however it wasn't an OHLC, instead it was a line for the whole day so difficult to see when the order was filled although, it did look like the price rose quickly rather than gapped up, which made me consider the following question:

What is a reasonable time for an order to be filled on the open for a tiny number of shares in a liquid market? Is it < 1min?

:innocent:
I'm with no one just a Private Investor. I stopped SB a couple of months back. Being continually entered and stopped out on spikes did it for me. Now I stick with Options.
Less stressful and more rewarding for those who can wait.

 

[SanMiguel]

:innocent:
I'm with no one just a Private Investor. I stopped SB a couple of months back. Being continually entered and stopped out on spikes did it for me. Now I stick with Options.
Less stressful and more rewarding for those who can wait.

The institutions have just as much knowledge about the options market, have you seen what happens on options expiry?
Most of the time, their aim is to expire your options worthless.

 

[TonyQ]

Whose aim? Options trading is a zero sum game. You can't buy unless there is a seller and you can't sell unless there is a buyer.. And as I write them (as well as buy them ) I am happy to see them expire worthless. Vertical Spreads are my favoured play.

 

[HowardCohodas]

Whose aim? Options trading is a zero sum game. You can't buy unless there is a seller and you can't sell unless there is a buyer.. And as I write them (as well as buy them ) I am happy to see them expire worthless. Vertical Spreads are my favoured play.

on vertical spreads.

I trade with ThinkOrSwim. When I issue a market order it is filled before my mouse leaves the "send order" button. Of course market orders do not get you great prices. Most of my trades are limit orders and can fill anywhere from immediately to expiring at the end of the day. If I want a fill badly enough, I modify the order until it is filled or until it passes my limit and then I abandon it.