SOCRATES
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Yes, to "cultivate" is the operative word. But cultivation implies that that the entrants are going to be properly cultivated and not left to their own devices. All of this with a thin veneer of the excuse that entrants are trained.charliechan said:
What happens is that in any arcade there is an elitist very tiny group who are consistently successful who keep themselves to themselves and do not reveal their methods to the others. The others, who are struggling, continuously squeal for help.
They are served platitudes instead of structured information that would enable them to solve their problems. When these entrants fail the onus is put on them. It is very cruel.
In the meantime the successful ones, who observe all of this going on determine not to give away anything. This causes their heads to be drilled. If this drilling continues for very long, they do not tolerate it and leave. Everyone is on a hiding to nothing.
But the turnover is massive and the commission flow is huge.
And then, to add insult to injury, while all this drama is unfolding, the resident psychologist is called upon to help, and then the it really starts. I mean to say, if it were not so dire, it would be funny.
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fxmarkets
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SOCRATES said:
That makes sense then if the commission flow "is" their business, they dont need to care to any great degree if people are queing up to get in and pay them.Why budget for the extra cost if none is needed.
What is the advantage of going with an arcade? if you had the best dealing costs on spreads can you trade how you want to trade , not thousands of turns, I mean are you their customer or their servant? Can you go in at 2/3 am if you wanted and go when you want? What do they want from you, just volume & comms?
Can you not get their spreads /maybe platform but trade from home or another office ? I have no knowledge on arcades , is their any benefit to the individual ?
I sense that it could be the "sweat shop" end of trading, of course thats based on nothing, just the tone I'm picking up.
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"What is the advantage of going with an arcade?" FXMARKETS
The major Benefit of trading from a "good" arcade is that you become part of the markets - immersed amongst other people, with a fantastic sense of what is going on. Difficult for me to explain in words - you have to trade from a professional office to experience and understand the difference.
This may not be so important for everyone, but here are something of what u get:
Speed, Instant feed back, opinions (good or bad) which make you think, often analysts / economists. Experinced and successful traders all around you.
THAT IS WHY THESE TRADERS MAKE MONEY, and mostly those outside the market place nearly always lose money
The major Benefit of trading from a "good" arcade is that you become part of the markets - immersed amongst other people, with a fantastic sense of what is going on. Difficult for me to explain in words - you have to trade from a professional office to experience and understand the difference.
This may not be so important for everyone, but here are something of what u get:
Speed, Instant feed back, opinions (good or bad) which make you think, often analysts / economists. Experinced and successful traders all around you.
THAT IS WHY THESE TRADERS MAKE MONEY, and mostly those outside the market place nearly always lose money
so are we saying most arcades just want vlume.. so there strategy they teach must be spreads as they will give 4 legs a trade instaed of 2 or 8 for flys.. is thjis true? anyone know arcades that just spin the bund outright for a tick etc? or are they always hedged?
Preferred method of execution, not trading method. Arcades fulfill thier buisiness by 'bums on seats', not education of the markets. Although, when they spot a 'natural', they will obviously want to use the individual to thier advantage. It makes sense to be ammicable with the 'good' traders.
Hi Spin,spin2win said:
Ofcourse Arcadedes want volume. Although, some of the trader owned arcades actually do understand that the traders have to be profitable in thier own right if they are gonna stick around. If you agree with that logic check out those arcades that have full time trainers. Also, check those that trade a multitude of markets. In my experience it is not about spreading and hedging at all.
SOCRATES
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,bundbaby said:
You are obviously subject to several misconceptions that I am going to straighten out for you right now.
This is because trading is an activity that cannot be shared, because it is very specific to the individual. It is the one arena in which sharing cannot and does not work.
You cannot become part of the market just like that. You become part of the market after many years of being a practitioner obsessively dedicated to the pursuit of excellence. We are talking of ten to fifteen years exposure or more, and of relentless sustained effort against all odds.
This idea of being immersed amongst other people, with a fantastic sense of what is going on is another nonsense, I am sorry to tell you and I regret it if it offends you, but the brutal truth is the opposite.
Real killer leading edge performance is not helped by having a roomful of individuals having opinions and sharing does not and cannot work.
What is required is the very opposite. Silence, isolation, introspection, observation, and applied thought without disturbances of noise, visual distractions and the presence of other people.
Speed, instant feedback, Opinions (good or bad) which make you think, often analysts / economists. Experienced and successful traders all around you. THAT IS WHY THESE TRADERS MAKE MONEY.
Let us break this down shall we ?
Speed ~ if you have your own dedicated platform you have all the speed you need and do not need to rely on anyone else.
Instant feedback ~ when you committ and take a position yourself, the moment you do this, you get instant feedback as to whether you yourself are right or wrong, which is the only feedback that counts, and not anybody else's.
Opinions ~ the least said about the opinions of others the better. Opinions are of no use.
Everybody is apt to have an opinion. We are not interested in hearing the opinions of others, we are interested in trading what we understand as a consequence of having a view, and trading what we see and recognise, and not the input of others.
These opinions of others do not make you think, to think properly that is, they do make you think I will concede, but only for you to misdirect yourself at best and at worst to become confused, if faced with a roomful of people (many of whom know very little) all expressing opinions. A pox on that for a start !
Experienced and successful traders all around you ~ What ?!? Do you really think the members of this website are naive enough to believe that by their very presence, these experienced and successful traders are going to graft their skills and knowledge to the others who find themselves in scenarios that they do not understand or are prepared for, even if they squeal for help ?
These skilled and successful traders will look after number one, meaning themselves, first, second and last. Any head drilling from anyone and they clam up. They are not going to carry the whole room. They are out for themselves. Anyone worth his salt as a trader does this. Anyone who believes it to be the contrary does so because they themselves are not in that position. Therefore your comment is already not valid, if only viewed from this perspective alone. I regret if my comments serve to offend you or dent your dignity, but I am obliged, in contradistinction to others, because of my knowledge and experience is considerable, to tell you the truth, blunt and to the point.
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SOCRATES
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Yes, precisely. But the best consider themselves to be on a sort of raft, you know, sort of on their own, with all these sharks circling round and round, which they occasionally hit really hard on the head with a well aimed blow from an oar.RUDEBOY said:
fxmarkets
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Well, if some arcades have people "excited and shouts come out, going up, get short, yeah woohhaa. then I cant see why a ,(not the way I feel with it anyway) trader would choose to put himself in that position, in fact i cant see them staying even for an hour and thats pushing it. Maybe its a bit gung ho americanised (noisey brits syndrome) . Unless he's on an incentive to entice or promote that atmosphere to maintain emotional wage flow for the arcades. It was a wild time but I have no money left. next.
And as for the economist I would imagine he would be a great stress relief instrument
when things went pear shaped. Is he a shop fitting?
If however the atmosphere is like an Zen temple of quiet getting on with it,being it , then perhaps that would be a good sign that you could in fact just do and be that.
Maybe there are a few arcades that are like libraries out there. I dont know.
And as for the economist I would imagine he would be a great stress relief instrument
when things went pear shaped. Is he a shop fitting? If however the atmosphere is like an Zen temple of quiet getting on with it,being it , then perhaps that would be a good sign that you could in fact just do and be that.
Maybe there are a few arcades that are like libraries out there. I dont know.
SOCRATES
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No, what you ought to do is cross examine the full time trainers themselves in order to properly be able to assess whether they constructively are able to train people correctly in a properly structured fashion or whether they themselves could do with some training before being let loose on desperate, frustrated, frightened, disappointed, ignorant trainees.bundbaby said:
I suggest you start there at the very beginning, and not the end.
And trading a multitude of markets is not the answer either, just a convenient panacea.
Usually pillocks who go on to write books about all these things they know very little about go on to cause a lot of grief.
And that is all for today. More later in the week.
Soc,
you are clearly not used to the value of information and being in the best place to prosper.
for example you said:
Opinions ~ the least said about the opinions of others the better. Opinions are of no use.
Everybody is apt to have an opinion. We are not interested in hearing the opinions of others, we are interested in trading what we understand as a consequence of having a view, and trading what we see and recognise, and not the input of others.
Now here is why you should talk markets:
I particularly recall talking to a trader about gold recently, how it had peaked, how we were due for a long period of consolidation around 420/430. I valued his input. He got me thinking. I looked at gold in detail again for the first time in a few months. Then I basically went against his comments and got myself a nice little long position. BUT WERE IT NOT FOR HIS INPUT I WOULD NOT HAVE TRADED ! !
You are quick to be contrarian in all your posts - i guess you trade the same way .
I actually value being part of a highly successful environment. And believe it or not I value your comments even though like the gold trader, I disagree with them.
regards
BB
you are clearly not used to the value of information and being in the best place to prosper.
for example you said:
Opinions ~ the least said about the opinions of others the better. Opinions are of no use.
Everybody is apt to have an opinion. We are not interested in hearing the opinions of others, we are interested in trading what we understand as a consequence of having a view, and trading what we see and recognise, and not the input of others.
Now here is why you should talk markets:
I particularly recall talking to a trader about gold recently, how it had peaked, how we were due for a long period of consolidation around 420/430. I valued his input. He got me thinking. I looked at gold in detail again for the first time in a few months. Then I basically went against his comments and got myself a nice little long position. BUT WERE IT NOT FOR HIS INPUT I WOULD NOT HAVE TRADED ! !
You are quick to be contrarian in all your posts - i guess you trade the same way .
I actually value being part of a highly successful environment. And believe it or not I value your comments even though like the gold trader, I disagree with them.
regards
BB
This has been an interesting thread. I went to visit a Trading Arcade for a day at which my friend was an Interest Rates trader (of some 15 years). I asked him what they taught trainees. He told me that his particular arcade was a 'Spread Trading' outfit, therefore that is what they taught the trainees.
He was one of about 3 guys in there (from what I could see), that was actually making *real* money. I asked if any of those guys traded spreads, they just smiled and in not so many words said 'No' ! I never found out how they traded (obviously), and I think they all had their own individual means and methods, but they had nothing to do with the trainee programme there at all.
So it kind of fits in with what Socrates has been saying. I got the impression that day, that this particular arcade taught you to trade particular spreads using certain methods. I think you could eventually make money out of it, but even then, with desk fee's, comissions and profit split, you had to work damn hard for your money. All the while, whilst you were sweating blood just to make a few quid, there was a group of 'Real' traders in the corner !
Admittedly that was one arcade, and I am sure not all are the same. I am looking to move to an arcade, but I think to get the best out of it, you have to go in with some knowledge already and be able to look for opportunities rather than outright 'Methods and Answers'.
He was one of about 3 guys in there (from what I could see), that was actually making *real* money. I asked if any of those guys traded spreads, they just smiled and in not so many words said 'No' ! I never found out how they traded (obviously), and I think they all had their own individual means and methods, but they had nothing to do with the trainee programme there at all.
So it kind of fits in with what Socrates has been saying. I got the impression that day, that this particular arcade taught you to trade particular spreads using certain methods. I think you could eventually make money out of it, but even then, with desk fee's, comissions and profit split, you had to work damn hard for your money. All the while, whilst you were sweating blood just to make a few quid, there was a group of 'Real' traders in the corner !
Admittedly that was one arcade, and I am sure not all are the same. I am looking to move to an arcade, but I think to get the best out of it, you have to go in with some knowledge already and be able to look for opportunities rather than outright 'Methods and Answers'.
i agree with you
i went to an arcade once and it seems a few people there really earn mega bucks.... but..... there are many many more people that just earn enough to pay there fees.... and it seems alot of them when i asked what they got taught said not much!
i went to an arcade once and it seems a few people there really earn mega bucks.... but..... there are many many more people that just earn enough to pay there fees.... and it seems alot of them when i asked what they got taught said not much!
SOCRATES
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You think I should waste my valuable time "talking markets". You waste your own time if you like, doing this pointless nonsense, but not me.bundbaby said:
I am not contrarian. But I do lay out the facts, brutally and to the point. Some people do not like this. They feel personally affronted when confronted with fundamental truths.
I am not interested in guesswork either.
With regard to the rest of your comments to me it is a great relief that you think in the way you do, because this exonerates me from the risk of having my head drilled in for that which cannot be given, under any circumstances.
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