SB firm prices vs market prices

daveb1

Newbie
Messages
9
Likes
0
Hi,

I'm looking to open a SB account for FTSE350 shares and am wondering if there is any benefit in using a SB firms 'quote price' rather than a 'market price' ?

I'd like to work with downloaded data/charts (Sharescope) for calculating entry & stop-loss prices rather than having to use SB firms' charts. I've seen various posts of people being stopped out when the market price didn't even reach their stoploss.

Do you have a feel for how accurately the SB firms' prices follow the underlying market price and are there any firms you'd recommend from this point of view ?

Thanks
Dave
 
I had a discussion several years ago with someone on another site about this and recorded the`price quoted by a well known broker and the SB. The difference was minimal at normal times. However, I have had some shares with Fins and found them very difficult to trade when there is overnight news. The spreads were so wide that I could not make the profit that I was hoping for. This was a well known Footsie share with good volume. That is what you must look for with 350 shares--that the volume is good. Then trade at quiet periods.

I do believe that SB companies have become more competitive in recent years, though. In the beginning, they had a very bad reputation which has subsequently improved, although lots of people don't trust them an inch. I'll trust them a bit more than that but they have to be watched.
 
I had a discussion several years ago with someone on another site about this and recorded the`price quoted by a well known broker and the SB. The difference was minimal at normal times. However, I have had some shares with Fins and found them very difficult to trade when there is overnight news. The spreads were so wide that I could not make the profit that I was hoping for. This was a well known Footsie share with good volume. That is what you must look for with 350 shares--that the volume is good. Then trade at quiet periods.

I do believe that SB companies have become more competitive in recent years, though. In the beginning, they had a very bad reputation which has subsequently improved, although lots of people don't trust them an inch. I'll trust them a bit more than that but they have to be watched.

Splitlink

Thanks for that. There seem to be a few SB firms who offer 'their quote' & 'market quote' but most state that the quote is 'their price' suggesting a license to move the price through the day to suit them.

Would you advise to go with a firm that offers 'market quotes' or do the 'own price' firms generally stick to the underlying market prices ? (I'd like to use market prices if this is practical)

btw: I'm looking at EOD not intraday

Thanks
Dave
 
I think that you will have to form your own opinion about that as I'm not sure whether the advantage
is beneficial. If you use the market price that is not to say that they may widen, or bias, the spread
to trigger any stop that you may have.

I'm afraid that the solution is to try it out, perhaps with minimum stakes.

Perhaps someone else could comment?
 
Splitlink

Thanks for that. There seem to be a few SB firms who offer 'their quote' & 'market quote' but most state that the quote is 'their price' suggesting a license to move the price through the day to suit them.

Would you advise to go with a firm that offers 'market quotes' or do the 'own price' firms generally stick to the underlying market prices ? (I'd like to use market prices if this is practical)

btw: I'm looking at EOD not intraday

Thanks
Dave

There was a thread about this on T2W a while back, if you can find it.

I for one ever understood what the SB cos meant by market price, because they're always stressing that all quotes are their own and that's what you have to trade!
 
This was my main concern when i started a week or two ago. I have an account with shortsandlongs.com cmc and igindex. Igindex is what i am using atm. They make their own price, based on the underlying market is what i was told by their staff. I have since watched it closely next to the real market price. There is no significant difference most of the time, however when news comes out and particuarly at market opens, they move the price in anticipation of a rally or sell off. This reduces potential profits drastically. It is usually only a difference of 5 - 10 points, but thats big for me as i am trying to 'scalp'?
 
There was a thread about this on T2W a while back, if you can find it.

I for one ever understood what the SB cos meant by market price, because they're always stressing that all quotes are their own and that's what you have to trade!

When I traded with City Index they had something--not sure if it was "our quote" and "screen quote, market price", something similar.

What that meant was that they quoted outside of hours and the screen, market quote was exchange times. So you were not stopped out overnight.
 
It's a few years ago now, but I seem to remember asking Fins about 'our quote' prices and it wasn't just to do with market hours.
 
This was my main concern when i started a week or two ago. I have an account with shortsandlongs.com cmc and igindex. Igindex is what i am using atm. They make their own price, based on the underlying market is what i was told by their staff. I have since watched it closely next to the real market price. There is no significant difference most of the time, however when news comes out and particuarly at market opens, they move the price in anticipation of a rally or sell off. This reduces potential profits drastically. It is usually only a difference of 5 - 10 points, but thats big for me as i am trying to 'scalp'?
How do they do this, they don't know in which way the market is heading? They can increase the spread (allowed), freeze the quotes, close the instruments for trading. There is always a risk for them doing this kind of manipulation you mentioned. Again, manipulation of the price feed is not allowed according to EU MiFID financial directives. The price quoted must reflect the moment of the underlying market.
 
Well say when the last quarterly was released for wall street, it was up like 10% or something. That and all the other positive fundamentals people were getting that morning you just know the market is going to open higher, and that in all likelyhood there will be a big rally for the first 30 minutes before ppl calm down. For arguments sake lets say the market price opened at 200, their price would be about 210 - 215. Then over the next 30 minutes or so the market price and igindex price seem to get closer together. But where as the market price may have rallied 40 points, igindex only rallied 25.

I think there is a good chance ive just misunderstood and there are other explanations. If that is the case though i would love to hear it because it drives me crazy not knowing why.
 
Well say when the last quarterly was released for wall street, it was up like 10% or something. That and all the other positive fundamentals people were getting that morning you just know the market is going to open higher, and that in all likelyhood there will be a big rally for the first 30 minutes before ppl calm down. For arguments sake lets say the market price opened at 200, their price would be about 210 - 215. Then over the next 30 minutes or so the market price and igindex price seem to get closer together. But where as the market price may have rallied 40 points, igindex only rallied 25.

I think there is a good chance ive just misunderstood and there are other explanations. If that is the case though i would love to hear it because it drives me crazy not knowing why.
I do not trade with IG, but I guess they quote the Dow rolling daily (before the markets opens in the US) based on the futures (or maybe a combination of futures). After the opening of the markets the algorithm includes that of the cash price index (DJIA). I think one is entitled to know how they calculate their prices, send them an email and ask on specifics.
 
Isn't it kind of like their version of limit order vs market order? What I mean is if you place a market order you will be filled at the best price they can get at the market. If you order at their quote that is the exact price you will get. Why not give them a call to clarify?
 
I have called igindex. It is pretty much what gle said but a 'quarterly future' as opposed to a combination (assuming i understood him correctly). I didnt ask if that just applied whilst the market was closed and for opening price, but i would imagine so as gle said. Im glad i got it explained to me. I also tried to upgrade my account so i don't get double the spread but i wasn't elegible being a student with no fixed income.

Do you think technical analysis becomes any more or less effective when switching from a 5 minute time frame to 30 minutes?
 
I had a discussion several years ago with someone on another site about this and recorded the`price quoted by a well known broker and the SB. The difference was minimal at normal times. However, I have had some shares with Fins and found them very difficult to trade when there is overnight news. The spreads were so wide that I could not make the profit that I was hoping for. This was a well known Footsie share with good volume. That is what you must look for with 350 shares--that the volume is good. Then trade at quiet periods.

I do believe that SB companies have become more competitive in recent years, though. In the beginning, they had a very bad reputation which has subsequently improved, although lots of people don't trust them an inch. I'll trust them a bit more than that but they have to be watched.

SB is pretty legitimate now, they make their money off the spread, not sure why there's a mistrust. Must be something the old guard didn't like when a new product came onto the finance scene but pretty much all the big playhers have a SB arm as well.
 
Oh no they don't!

What then? They underwrite their position so as not to lose.
They trade as well but that's separate. Price difference on forex is never more than 1 or 2 pips away so it's not stop hunting...any stop hunting is done by the actual big players in the market.
 
What then? They underwrite their position so as not to lose.
They trade as well but that's separate. Price difference on forex is never more than 1 or 2 pips away so it's not stop hunting...any stop hunting is done by the actual big players in the market.

As has been stated on these boards many times (sometimes even by people working for SB companies...) they only need to hedge their overall position once it gets skewed to a certain risk level. On the basis that most punters let losers run and close winners early, smaller bets on shares hardly ever need to be hedged.
 
As has been stated on these boards many times (sometimes even by people working for SB companies...) they only need to hedge their overall position once it gets skewed to a certain risk level. On the basis that most punters let losers run and close winners early, smaller bets on shares hardly ever need to be hedged.

That's just the same as any broker, spot forex, etc. Why should a SB be any different?
 
Oh no they don't!

As it was explained to me by an SB director himself, they do make their money off the spreads and also what was said earlier - by hedging in the markets.

In a sense you're indirectly trading in the markets via a middleman who only goes to the market when he has enough orders/needs to. Otherwise they have enough capital to handle most daily orders like a bookie (my interpretation, not his words).

They're governed by the FSA so they can't really scam you and besides it's not in their interest to do so. How long do you think they could do that before they were shut down anyway? I've got several SB accounts now but when I first started I had confrontations with nearly all of them for this very reason:LOL: - bit of a hot head me :mad: (even got transferred to said director one day during a complaint call and then accused him of stealing my money as well!) Afterwards, when I thought about it and went over everything he had told me I felt like a right tw*t. :eek:He was absolutely right and I didn't have my figures correct.

I think people like to blame someone when they lose (it's human nature) but the SB companies keep very comprehensive records of every transaction - just look in your account history, it's all there.

One thing you should watch out for is the spread changing (which is does sometimes, especially on stocks - this is a sore point for many because they do it without any warning and this can affect your stop and other orders). Personally I avoid day trading these instruments but if you're not day trading, exact levels don't really matter anyway (it's only ever a couple of points wider when it happens). Also the prices on the platform and the charts they provide don't always tally (latency?) so it's best to base your orders on their platform prices rather than their charts (although most the time they do tally and very rarely go out of sync - just something to keep in mind). If in doubt best to have an independent chart ready from another source if you're trading off a chart (just remember SBs trade at a premium to cash market like futures do).

They base their prices on the futures markets and follow these. Not the cash markets - even though they offer a daily cash instrument. Guess this simply means their prices are always at a premium to the cash markets (although never noticed them at a discount before...)

The spread is a right pain though as it makes some strategies impractical but what you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts.


ANOTHER TIP: Sometimes when the markets get really busy (like at the UK and US open) the platform seems to slow down (latency) and it doesn't respond very well. Sometimes you even lose connection. Their advice is to clear your internet cache regurlarly (Internet Options for IE regardless of the browser you're using). I've found the best browser is Google Chrome. Other than that, just pack as much RAM as your system will take/you can afford.
 
Last edited:
Top