SAVIUS a new prop firm looking for traders and...your comments

Lúidín

Established member
818 61
If I consider going into business with any person, or entity, then I have 3 questions that I ask, as follows.

1. What exactly are you offering, and I mean in detail, no vague statements.

2. How much of my money will be at risk.

3. What is my potential reward for putting my money at risk.

Can you answer no.1 first to see if we can take the discussion further.

Thank You

Lúidín
 

alexaherself

Established member
560 149
The challenge is $198 but if you go live we will refund it.

That isn't what it says on your website. There, it says that if you pass the challenge, you'll refund it. Not that you have to "go live", to get the refund.

Your website actually gives almost no information at all about the incentive/reward for passing the challenge: only that one becomes eligible to proceed to "phase 2" if one passes it, but with no description at all of what "phase 2" is, what its purpose is, or even whether it's free/paid, etc.

All very mysterious! :confused:
 

SAVIUS

Junior member
26 1
Hey Alexa you are right unfortunately, that part is still a bit unclear on the website.
We have recently restructured and created a video explainer on the home page but we still get a lot of questions on phase 2.
Here is how it works.
If you pass the Savius Trading Challenge we reimburse you the 198 USD via paypal straight away, and Phase 2 begins.
Phase 2 means that you keep trading on a sim account with the same risk rules but you have no profit obligation nor the obligation to trade everyday. We just want to see how you perform in normal conditions so , not under stress. It s not a test, so worst case scenario if you are negative , well ask you to stay a touch longer on the sim, but if you passed the Challenge you can be sure we ll send you live.
This period is also used to do all the documentation and compliance , account openings , etc.
This is what we call phase 2.
In any circumstance new traders start live the first day of each month and get paid the first day of the following.
As I wrote above we are seriously considering wether prolonging phase 2 to about a month and maybe paying the trader a small fixed fee to trade on the simulator. This way he ll be rewarded for his/her time and we ll have more data to understand how he/she trades. It s in the set of ideas that we are studying for next year...
 
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Lúidín

Established member
818 61
Does the high watermark level apply, and if so can you give a typical example of how it was applied to a trader's live account?

Lúidín
 

SAVIUS

Junior member
26 1
Hey Luidin, thanks for the question. It gives me a chance to explain how it works and how we got there.
The trailing stop is actually pretty new, we started applying it since last September, before we simply allocated 1250 Risk per trader: that s it.
We then decided to make it 1500 USD so the trader could have had the chance to have 3 negative days in a row losing 500 usd.
Problem was what I explained before: large majority of live traders don't even get into positive territory and those who actually went positive most of the times went back and burnt the whole risk. A live trader implied automatically a cost of 1500.
We then introduced the profit trailing , which is of the same amount of the initial risk, 1500 and then grows slowly as the equity line progress.
It does work on high watermark principle.
So suppose you started trading for us on November first. On November 15th you are up 1000 usd but then you go on a DD period and lose 1500 USD in a row and bring the account back to -500 USD. In that case we will stop you and ask you to take the Challenge again. You lost nothing , we lost 500.
Case number 2: You go up 1500 and then lose it all back. Here the rule will apply exactly as the previous case , but depending on what we see we might decide to put you on the sim for a week and then back live or to simply allocate again some risk and let you trade a bit more live ( this is exactly what we did to one of our live traders last week and it worked).

Case number 3: you go up 3000 and lose back 1500. At this point the applied rule would be to pay you 750 usd and ask you to take the Challenge again( be both made money). Again according to our perception of your skills we may decide to allow you more risk, or we may decide together to risk the profit left.

Our risk rules imply a max capital allocation per trader but we also try to deal with people like human beings. We base those decisions on the way the trader interacts with the risk manager , his trading style, etc.

Before we turn on the discussion of the " too little space" , I want to state once more that there is no rush to make money.
The problem is that live traders get greedy.
They want to make money fast and increase the leverage fast, and they are ready to take a lot of unnecessary risk , especially as it is not their money.
500 USD risk trading 1 lot of QM is equivalent to a full dollar move on crude. If that is not enough for you to trade intraday , then you shouldnt be trading intraday.
It s 100 tics move of with 1 MiniDOW contract.
It s roughly 100 tics of MiniDax corresponding to 100 points move on the big contract.
There a few low leverage instruments that would allow you to trade with a 500 usd risk per day giving a logic to a trading plan.
But again a lot of traders want to trade 2 lots of crude, or 3, and 1 or 2 DAX contracts. This prevents them to use technical stops, they are obliged to use monetary stops , and that normally kills them quite quickly.
So to go back to your inquiry, we had to insert the profit trailing to try and capture a small portion of that profit that a few traders produce, or at least to reduce risk.

I think I m being very honest and open minded to share all this on a forum, probably even too much!:) I hope some of you guys appreciate it.
 

alexaherself

Established member
560 149
I think I m being very honest and open minded to share all this on a forum


Well, please excuse these two observations ...


(i) Once you've chosen to start off a promotional thread in a forum in order to publicise your business, it would certainly look pretty bad if you weren't open and honest, when people ask you questions;

(ii) If you gave more information on your website, you might not be asked so much in public: your "FAQ" page is very difficult indeed to find - it's not even listed in the main navigation system at the top of the home page - and some of the gross grammatical errors on the site also lose you credibility (yes, I know all three of you are Italian-speakers, but when putting up a professional website in English, you really should have had it checked over by a native English-speaker).


However, you don't come across at all as dishonest, and you're certainly answering people's questions here, and you're doing so well and openly. I'll give you that. ;)
 

SAVIUS

Junior member
26 1
Hey Alexa,
yes point taken. Agree on everything you said.

I ll try to work on the website during the xmas break. Thanks
 

Lúidín

Established member
818 61
Hey Luidin, thanks for the question. It gives me a chance to explain how it works and how we got there.
The trailing stop is actually pretty new, we started applying it since last September, before we simply allocated 1250 Risk per trader: that s it.
We then decided to make it 1500 USD so the trader could have had the chance to have 3 negative days in a row losing 500 usd.
Problem was what I explained before: large majority of live traders don't even get into positive territory and those who actually went positive most of the times went back and burnt the whole risk. A live trader implied automatically a cost of 1500.
We then introduced the profit trailing , which is of the same amount of the initial risk, 1500 and then grows slowly as the equity line progress.
It does work on high watermark principle.
So suppose you started trading for us on November first. On November 15th you are up 1000 usd but then you go on a DD period and lose 1500 USD in a row and bring the account back to -500 USD. In that case we will stop you and ask you to take the Challenge again. You lost nothing , we lost 500.
Case number 2: You go up 1500 and then lose it all back. Here the rule will apply exactly as the previous case , but depending on what we see we might decide to put you on the sim for a week and then back live or to simply allocate again some risk and let you trade a bit more live ( this is exactly what we did to one of our live traders last week and it worked).

Case number 3: you go up 3000 and lose back 1500. At this point the applied rule would be to pay you 750 usd and ask you to take the Challenge again( be both made money). Again according to our perception of your skills we may decide to allow you more risk, or we may decide together to risk the profit left.

Our risk rules imply a max capital allocation per trader but we also try to deal with people like human beings. We base those decisions on the way the trader interacts with the risk manager , his trading style, etc.

Before we turn on the discussion of the " too little space" , I want to state once more that there is no rush to make money.
The problem is that live traders get greedy.
They want to make money fast and increase the leverage fast, and they are ready to take a lot of unnecessary risk , especially as it is not their money.
500 USD risk trading 1 lot of QM is equivalent to a full dollar move on crude. If that is not enough for you to trade intraday , then you shouldnt be trading intraday.
It s 100 tics move of with 1 MiniDOW contract.
It s roughly 100 tics of MiniDax corresponding to 100 points move on the big contract.
There a few low leverage instruments that would allow you to trade with a 500 usd risk per day giving a logic to a trading plan.
But again a lot of traders want to trade 2 lots of crude, or 3, and 1 or 2 DAX contracts. This prevents them to use technical stops, they are obliged to use monetary stops , and that normally kills them quite quickly.
So to go back to your inquiry, we had to insert the profit trailing to try and capture a small portion of that profit that a few traders produce, or at least to reduce risk.

I think I m being very honest and open minded to share all this on a forum, probably even too much!:) I hope some of you guys appreciate it.

When I read your posts, there is a lot of reference to losing, which is fine when done correctly, but I am starting to form an opinion that you might not have a very good strategy, for if you had, why are so many traders failing?

It is your job, as the strategy provider, to provide the trader with all the tools required to achieve a set profit target with a set number of trades, trading a specific market, with a defined draw down on account.

From what I am reading, and seeing so far, I do not see how you are going to improve on your % stats, and if you are willing to accept the stats and continue as is, then things will not change.

Some main things that I see as drawbacks.

1. Your strategy is not optimized for inexperienced traders - in other words, you are allowing some people to trade highly risky markets without taking their mental and trading abilities into consideration.

2. Your technical analysis approach is way overestimated, and while a few members of Savius might be able to make money trading using these techniques, I would guess that the sample trade amount, that yields a positive result, will be far greater than that allowed for the challenge.

3. Your risk model is not good - you are allowing traders overtrade by allowing multiple contracts. If a trader is allowed to open a position with more then one contract, then the odds are against him form the start. A trader should only be allowed to trade multiple contracts with realized profits, and even at that, only on a proportional basis.

4. Your cut of 50% of profits is way too high, and would not entice any profitable traders to join your team.

In relation to high watermark level, I was inquiring more along these lines. Does something like this apply also?


Definition
The highest value that has been earned by an investment fund. This value is often used when determining the bonus earned by the fund manager; a fund manager's bonus will be based on the amount of money he or she earned above the high watermark level. If the amount of money earned is below the high watermark level, he or she will not receive a bonus.


Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/6836/high_watermark.html#ixzz3ty5QjSdS


Lúidín
 

SAVIUS

Junior member
26 1
Hey Luidin,
for what refers to watermark yes, that definition applies to us , it s what I was trying to say (excuse my English)

With reference to other comments, they are highly appreciated and there is some good sense in what you write for sure.
This forum is really helping us to have an exchange with traders like yourself and trying to understand in what direction we should be pointing the "fore" in the future.
As I told you we are evaluating a few changes for next year...
At the same time the risk allocated, profit share, etc it s part of the way we have decided to run the business and it is based on the experiences we had as professionals. Also some of your opinions on max risk allocated and multiple lots etc unfortunately are not widely agreed by the traders community.

As for every trading plan there is always a point when it gets personal in terms of risk perception and risk acceptance.

Thanks for your thoughts .
 

SAVIUS

Junior member
26 1
Sorry , I forgot to comment on the profit split.
Considering that:
-the average trader is not a pro and has no financial background
-he/she works part time from home with no obligations to perform
-he/she risks nothing and still gets rewarded

I see the 50% profit split as quite fair, also considering that it increases to 70% eventually as I wrote.

Those companies who offer better profit splits normally only provide leverage, meaning they will ask the trader a cash deposit of 10K and that risk will be entirelytrader's risk .

Some others would agree to pay even 90% or 100 % of the profit if they reach 5K in profit without any cash withdrawal ( payment).
They know that 99% of the times the trader would ask to withdraw part of the profit when he reaches 2-3k or that he will be kicked out by the profit trailing before reaching the 5K mark.
So basically they are pretty sure it's not gonna happen or at least very rarely.
 

NVP

Legendary member
37,767 2,101
why is this guy being allowed to advertise a commercial trading forum/website on T2win ?

have I been in a coma for the last few weeks ..(no jokes).......?....did I miss a shift in the rules here ?

can I reopen all my mega training blogs , journals and supersites ? :LOL::cool:

N
 

Lúidín

Established member
818 61
why is this guy being allowed to advertise a commercial trading forum/website on T2win ?

have I been in a coma for the last few weeks ..(no jokes).......?....did I miss a shift in the rules here ?

can I reopen all my mega training blogs , journals and supersites ? :LOL::cool:

N

I have posted in your thread, as I am interested in how you scalp eur.usd and what charts you use.

Lúidín
 

Lúidín

Established member
818 61
Sorry , I forgot to comment on the profit split.
Considering that:
-the average trader is not a pro and has no financial background
-he/she works part time from home with no obligations to perform
-he/she risks nothing and still gets rewarded

I see the 50% profit split as quite fair, also considering that it increases to 70% eventually as I wrote.

Those companies who offer better profit splits normally only provide leverage, meaning they will ask the trader a cash deposit of 10K and that risk will be entirelytrader's risk .

Some others would agree to pay even 90% or 100 % of the profit if they reach 5K in profit without any cash withdrawal ( payment).
They know that 99% of the times the trader would ask to withdraw part of the profit when he reaches 2-3k or that he will be kicked out by the profit trailing before reaching the 5K mark.
So basically they are pretty sure it's not gonna happen or at least very rarely.

In my opinion, you will not get any trader join you who is able to make money on his own.

If you think about it, you can daytrade ES with $5k, which is really nothing when it comes to a trading account.

So, say you average $250 per day clear profit over a month, which is approx $1k per week allowing for little expenses, which is not a bad wage for a few hours work each day.

If trading with you, apart from the limitations of having to use your strategy and indicators, as I take it you are saying that is how you operate, you will initially take $500 per week from the profits.

Why would anyone do something so stupid, unless of course they do not know anything about trading for consistent profits, and think that the more money they have access to the more they will make, which in most cases does the exact opposite, which you have stated yourself.

You are not in control. You are not focused on individual trader mentoring, which is what is required if you truly want to make more money by helping others become consistently profitable.

I am sorry, but in my eyes you are not offering anything different than the rest. Your main focus is revenue from selling indicators and a very bad attempt at a professional prop trading setup, which is fine, as you are entitled to try and make money any way you can, outside of your live trading.

In summary, nothing new or exciting that would make profitable traders think of joining your team.

I wish you well in your business venture.

Lúidín
 
 
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