Risk models

wasp

Legendary member
Messages
5,107
Likes
879
Hi,

Shockingly little amount of info in here about this. I realise now how I should have thought about this in more detail much earlier but anyhow... It is definitely something not properly considered for the newbies.

As things progress, I want to build a better model for my risk management but I am essentially a straight spot trader and other than the regular, 'cut losses quick and never risk more than 2% exposure', what other suggestions, ideas, thoughts and possible reading can anyone suggest?

Cheers
 
then do some research on VaR.......means "Value at Risk"........To be honest, you dont want to go there.

I would honestly stick with basic retail trader rules.

Unless you are running a Hedge Fund or something similar (including your own portfolio, for that matter), I wouldn't go there.

good luck.
 
then do some research on VaR.......means "Value at Risk"........To be honest, you dont want to go there.

I would honestly stick with basic retail trader rules.

Unless you are running a Hedge Fund or something similar (including your own portfolio, for that matter), I wouldn't go there.

good luck.

The size I am trading along with managing others funds means I do want to go there so thanks, I shall take a look.
 
It seems all this (the VaR) does is give me a theoretical predicted risk status average based on prior results ?
 
Can anyone suggest options for hedging in currency? Specifically vs GBPJPY?
 
IMO VaR is only applicable if you're running abook of multiple positions, and even then it has its limitations. Try hunting around for CrashMetrics or RiskMetrics on the web, I think there is some data you can download...?? Anyhow... building a proprietary model for they type of trading I guess we all do (i.e. simple long or short until out, not pairs trading or carry trades or model based trades) is a lot of work for little return. I guess the crux of the matter is that to develop a sound model of your risk, you need a sound model of how the asset behaves - A sound model of how the asset behaves is keep slots of outrageously bright people quiet, so it is safe to assume it isnt something like "buy it on a bounce off support, close it at XXXX, take profits at YYYY".

IF you wanted to, I guess you could use some bootstrappping ot Monte Carlo simulations to give an indication of liklihood price will reach your target - if you think it will be any use, which I doubt.

Also, I think there is an important clafification to make here: do you want a way to monitor your own performance, such as risk adjusted returns, or are you looking for something that will give you an idea of your "expected" risk for any given trade?

If the former, then look up Sharpe ratio's, Kelly Criterion and such...

If the latter... well, to be honest, i wouldn't bother. You might like to look at building a GARCH or EWMA model of each asset you track, and take it from there - though, I have to say, i don't think this will be any use either. Modelling asset prices as stochastics, Markov's etc.. is all good and well if you are continually in positions. Prices are driven by buying and selling, they are not random walks a priori, it is just that random walks do very well as a model. You are most concerbned about risk. volatility etc.. when you are in a trade, you will only be in a trade when you can determine the emerging pattern of buying or selling.

So, in short:

Sharpe Ratio's, Alpha if your trading stocks etc.. , Kelly Criterion.

You could use VaR, but unless you're running multiple positions regularly, its over the top by a country mile.

GARCH etc.. are useful if you are trading from models of asset behaviour, but it strikes me as a clear contradiction in terms: why would you model your risk on a random walk, when you are only at risk when prices aren't "randomly walking", they are being driven by excess demand or supply. Perhaps there is something in building a model that shows you when the RW model isn't applicable anymore?? Don't know, just thinking out loud.
 
RE: GBPJPY, can you clarify? do you mean all the list of options that are available to hedge, or how to hedge using options... I assume you are talking about taking out some of the volatility??
 
RE: GBPJPY, can you clarify? do you mean all the list of options that are available to hedge, or how to hedge using options... I assume you are talking about taking out some of the volatility??

I'll reply to this one first as too much Pinotage means the other will have to wait until morning. ;)

One of the things I am looking to do is reduce my exposure. I trade 90% straight spot in GBPJPY. I am not naive enough to believe things will never go wrong and the inevitable is just that, inevitable. Rather than experience this worst case scenario, I want to hedge, be it through options or any means.

I don't mind admiting I am completely ignorant when it comes to options and I may be heading up a path which will not help me and I should stick with cutting losses and minimal % risk but I am uncomfortable as is.
 
there is something retail traders dont ever understand. it is that trading with a stop loss is the equivalent of trading options (on the buy side that is) that dont have "volatility" value (i.e. expiry is very very close).

you are either going long (buying a call) or shorting (buying a put). The premium you pay is the # of pips you use as a stoploss. the strike price of the option is the price at which you either long or short.

so, be careful if options is the way you will go.......it will only create exposures you dont understand today.
 
Hi,

Shockingly little amount of info in here about this. I realise now how I should have thought about this in more detail much earlier but anyhow... It is definitely something not properly considered for the newbies.

As things progress, I want to build a better model for my risk management but I am essentially a straight spot trader and other than the regular, 'cut losses quick and never risk more than 2% exposure', what other suggestions, ideas, thoughts and possible reading can anyone suggest?

Cheers

Hi ,

Most of risk analysis models such as Garch ,VAR , ARMA ignore the market psychology. As a result most of these models lead to unreliable risk forecast.

Can i ask you to look into extreme value theory as it is by far more appropriate in trading than any other model,, Var model for example ignores the unexpected and deals with expected volatility and this is where the model fails to deal with market psychology,, you need a model that does not let you down when the extreme volatility occurs .I Give you an example,,, FRE,LEH have gone through a massive down ward spike last past few days ,, if you had used a VAR model (normal , lognormal distribution of the volatility ) then I would not be surprised if your portfolio had suffered massively as a result of the inaccurate VAR forecast.

I have no idea what your experience is in trading and if it is at all appropriate to use any risk model and if it is going to be beneficial to you as one would need to code the risk model and execute it in real time to be of any value .

Remember it is the very LOW probability trades which often crashes portfolio's,,, example

1) DOW wont crash 700 points in 1 day ( WE YET TO SEE THIS BUT OCTOBER CAPITULATION IS ON THE CARD .. )
2) Surely stocks cannot lose 90% of their value in 2 DAYS day ( FRE, FNM DID )
3) I have not had a car crash in 20 years hence no point insuring the car ( SOME ONE CRASHES INTO YOU NEXT DAY )


grey1
 
  • Like
Reactions: BSD
Grey1 said:
1) DOW wont crash 700 points in 1 day ( WE YET TO SEE THIS BUT OCTOBER CAPITULATION IS ON THE CARD .. )
2) Surely stocks cannot lose 90% of their value in 2 DAYS day ( FRE, FNM DID )


grey1

Today Market down 400 points pre open . AIG down 50%

This is where EVT comes handy

grey1
 
look at models that employ correllations -> 1

i.e. fire sale, everybody sells, previous relationships break down
 
kenobi, excellent point about stop loss trades and options - with one major difference:

when your stop is hit, you're out. but with options, you get a second chance if the price moves back your way.

I think options are expensive, because you have to pay the spread to the market maker and then you have to pay for the time decay while you're holding them. But I definitely think they're a good way to hedge.
 
Sweepy, isn't the underlying problem twofold when trying to tame risk:

A: Nobody knows what is going to happen next,

and

B: Risk and Reward are correlated.

If that were not the case everybody would be making 800% year with a 0,5% drawdown.

;-)

So, in real life, no reward without exposure to risk.

And the size of your reward depends on the amount of risk you are willing to expose yourself to.

And if that amount is causing you sleepless nights, wasn't it one of the Market Wizards who recommended to then reduce your risk to your sleep-well levels.

Nothing much new here at all, but I'd always run away very quickly if some whiz kids promise you the keys to the moon, great returns with minimal risks, well, we've just seen what happened to the likes of LTCM or more recently certain no more independently operating banks that thought they had that non-existing holy grail cracked, right ?

As for hedges, well, they may protect your downside, but again at the cost of eating into your upside, so really provide you with no more than a similar situation to if you'd just been smaller from the outset.

Outright trading with options, well, unlike with futures your worst case scenario is clearly defined, but can you trade in and out with them with equal ease, low costs and speed intraday like with futures ?

I may be wrong here, but from what I've seen I believe options are only really a viable alternative to futures for longer term stuff where at a bare minimum your holding period would be at least several days.
 
what about probabilities?, alot of traders talk of risk/reward ratio, but what if a risk of 3 to reward of only 1 has a 90% chance of hitting the 1 before the 3?
 
Top