Optionetics

[RedE]

Optionetics Seminar

The duo of George Fontanills and Tom Gentile, with whom many of you may be familiar through their books, magazine columns or website( www.optionetics.com ), are holding an Optionetics seminar in London next week.

Has anyone been to one of these?

How was it?

Did you learn much?

Is it worth £1,395?

 

[p45cal]

Yes, I attended 2 years ago and learnt plenty.
Is it worth the £1395? Well I paid £740 or so then because they had a scheme whereby if you took a buddy he would for go for free. I think they run a similar scheme now. At the time I thought it was worth it, but have had this confirmed as last year they came to the UK and I re-attended, and I'm re-attending this year too. Why? It costs nothing to re-attend, any seminar, as often as you like, anywhere in the world. I was new to options the first time and didn't get my head round all the concepts, the second time was much more useful as I had a better grasp and they talked about different strategies. This time I'm expecting to hear more different strategies, more in tune with today's market, which they always try to do anyway.
This course will best benefit those who are prepared to work at it. The materials help a lot. I listened to the 16 or so audio tapes at least twice whilst driving and learnt more on the second run than on the first run. The 3 course manuals are good reference and learning material too. They also offer a video series which I've watched but not bought (I know a colleague who'd bought them) that was equally useful which I will be watching again.
Be warned though, don't expect to sit down and learn this stuff passively, you have to pause and review the tapes often, so a 1 hour tape might take you 2 hours to get through.
Of the courses I've been on (Chris Manning and Optionetics) and those that colleagues have been on and told me about (Stanzione, Winters, Farley amongst others), I reckon the Optionetics one was the best value, especially as there is good 'after care'. They also seem to be the most earnest and 'upfront' of all the outfits I've come across.
I don't work for them by the way, honest!

 

[stevet]

p45cal

might seem a silly question - but have you made any money trading options since the course

 

[p45cal]

Yes

 

[bottomdollar]

I looked at options, just too much hard work for me

 

[stevet]

options are just about the most difficult way to make money in the markets simply because pricing is arbitary and spreads are wide

 

[RogerM]

stevet - Whilst I agree that simply buying an option (call or put) in the expectation that you will make money with a move in the anticipated direction is probably the hardest way to make money in the options market, I strongly disagree that options are the most difficult way to make money if they are used correctly.

I've not been on the Optionetics course, but the material on their web site is good and well worth reading.

Most options (about 80%) expire worthless, so generally the side to be is on the short side (either calls or puts). Options can be sold to either raise premium for its own sake, or to buy other options so that you are in a position for free.

Spreads are admittedly wide, but pricing is not arbitrary but a function of a number of variables, of which price of the underlying instrument is only one. Volatility and time are 2 of the other key ingredients. Time is the enemy of the option buyer, so I prefer to be a seller and have time decay working in my favour. This enables you to make a wrong call and still have room for the position to move against you and to still come out with a profit. What other forms of trading enable you to make a wrong call and still make money?

As an example, say you expect the FTSE100 to fall sometime during the next 6 weeks, but you are not convinced of your ability to pick the top, but you believe it to be close. Today with the FTSE at 4300 you could sell 2 x November 4425 calls for £425 each, and use the premium collected to buy 1 x November 4225 put for £720, leaving you £130 to cover dealing costs and a few beers. Provided that the FTSE does not rise above 4425 at expiry you will remain in profit, as shown by the heavy blue line on the payoff diagram below. If the FTSE falls, profits accrue along the purple line. An immediate move against you would result in a loss if you decided to close the position immediately, but provided that you are prepared to give it a bit of room, time decay will work in your favour and provided the contra move doesn't continue, the position will move back to you and the position will still close in profit. An immediate fall in the FTSE results in an immediate profit which can be taken by closing both sides of the position. Or you can close either side of the position in isolation depending on your view. Lots of choices here. What other form of trading can offer this type of flexibility when things go wrong?

This is just offered as an example. It is NOT a recommendation. By the time you read this things will be different. I do not hold this position myself!!!!

 

[stevet]

RogerM

thanks - and yes there are opportunities in options - i trade 100s and 100s of them every day - but I still say they are one of the hardest to trade since the pricing is based on the underlying, and also on the availability of size in the underlying and also on the volatility of the underlying- and of course the liquidity of the options etc etc - so just using them as a leveraged play is not as easy as it may appear on a one day course!

 

[RogerM]

stevet - ahh! Now that's a very different statement!

Agree with all that. But how realistic is it to become competent at any form of trading on the back of a one day course. Certainly not swing, day or L2 trading - so why should options be any different? Options trading requires a whole raft of new skills and knowledge on top of the pre-requisite that you should at least have some basic competency in swing trading first. But I still think that for anyone prepared to put in the work, then run ghost strategies for a few months whilst it's put into practice, options offer a good way to bring in regular returns with strategies that are a bit like watching paint dry, but which do the business! And you don't need to sit in front of a screen all day.

 

[stevet]

anyone who pays any trainer money to learn training is just dumping their money down the toilet ( and of course that is their right ) - but trying to learn options on a day or two course is the greatest lunacy of all!

had a great laugh listening to the options trainers at the alternative investment show ( i went their to look at the classic cars) - its the old thing of blinding people with the science of trading - but forgetting to mention that the science is worth zilch when it comes to trading ( trainers learned that the hard way, which is why they become trainers)

but get this - i dont swing trade options or whatever - i intraday trade them

 

[RogerM]

stevet - different people learn in different ways, and for some personal tuition is the way they learn best. Others like to do it for themselves by background reading in their own time. For some, a cousre will put into context what they have already learned or read about.

To be successful, everyone, no matter which is their preferred method of learning, needs to learn actively - i.e. the trainers job is to train, he/she cannot do the learning! That is the task of the delegate.

I tend to swing trade options with the intention of the trade lasting several days, but where I'm not allergic to nailing down profit intraday if the opportunity arises, particularly with short positions where you know the max profit available from the outset.

 

[stevet]

rogerm

the only way to learn trading is by doing it - either with a trader who takes you under their wing ( and they are not going to charge, but will take a cut of your future profits) , or by using real small size and doing it on your own, backed up by reading everything you can find - from books to forums like this

no one is going to learn trading from a "trainer" who spends a day or two "teaching" - worse - you are liable to learn the very techniques that made the trainer become a trainer and not a trader

i would never hold an option overnight unless it was part of an arb strategy - but of course would love to just buy and sit back and wait for the profit, but i need to work on things which can make me some money each and every day - so cant just sit back and wait for it!

 

[Jaymistrymba]

George Fontanills

RedE

I went to the free Optionetics seminar here in London recently. Have done some research on George Fontanills on the internet and heard good things about him, hardly any negativity unlike with Winters and Stanzione's systems.

I'am thinking of purchasing George's 'Wealth without worry' system as well as his book which is based on the Optionetics course.
Does anyone have this system and have they made money from it?

 

[stevet]

i guess that trading options is just so complex and can be so harmful to your health that most who take a course end up totaly confused or get burned right out of the trap and dont try again - so they will just get brain seizure and assume the problem is with them and not the trainer - because the trainer had told them how to do it - yeh - right!

the reality is that options are real difficult and the only person gonna make money out of optins training - is the trainer

if you want to learn to trade options - get a job as an options marketmaker or forget it

if you are just looking for a bit of fun and like a bit of complexity and earning a bit of pocket money - that you can do some strategies such as covered call writing - but thats as far as it goes

options for all but professionals, equeals massive risk and minimum chance of profit

i trade options intra-day as a way to load up with leverage for trading stocks - and that means i trade futures, off against stocks, and take advantage of forced market maker option moves ( market making is different in options to stocks) - try it!

 

[hagadol]

Seen an ad in yesterday's (Friday) London Evening Standard for a free seminar from Optionetics..co.uk

Does anyone know about them ?

Is it worth attending ?

 

[neil]

Seen an ad in yesterday's (Friday) London Evening Standard for a free seminar from Optionetics..co.uk

Does anyone know about them ?

Is it worth attending ?

Scroll to the top of the page for a comment on the firm and read down

 

[scrappy]

The free seminar is not about an y form of technical analysis. Thay spend about an hour going through how you can make money with minimum risk and a little bit about there startegies. With the idea being that you sign up to the course.

I attended this seminar with a clleague about three years ago, signed up to the course, got the materials and never got to attend their live seminars. They had promised several that year and only did the one (which we could not attend). Waited ages for another one in the UK, werent any until recently.

But the course materials and videos are excellent, very well put together and dedsigned to make you understand options inside out.

 

[nomish]

I already understand and trade options.

Is it worth going along to see if i can learn anything new? or is it all just how options work, and all that basic stuff u would already know if u trade them?

 

[giggs]

went on seminar, very interested but can't afford it being out of work now but anyone prepared to sell the books and literature given for the course - prepared to pay asking price

 

[scalpino]

I went to the free seminar a few weeks ago. It was basically a promotional presentation to get you to sign up to their 2 day seminars for £1,495, although you can reduce this cost as you can bring along a maximum of 2 others for an additional £495 per person.

Also they mentioned their "guarantee" ("in writing") that entitles you to your money back if you don't make 3 times the cost of the seminar in profits by options trading using their methods over the 6 months after the seminar. I was naturally intrigued by this guarantee and have since asked someone at Optionetics in the States about it. She told me that to qualify for this you have to do 36 trades over the 6 months. It has since occured to me that perhaps Optionetics are getting kick-backs on this business from a broker they recommend for executing the trades. Halewood International Futures Ltd (FSA authorized) was mentioned as "approving" one of their adverts.

Has anyone who has been on the 2 day seminar been able to take advantage of this guarantee or have you all made back 3 times the cost ?

Would be very interested to know.