No B.S. Day Trading

[futuretrader100]

We find it even harder to believe that "I've seen and used it ALL and none of it provides consistent results." I have not met a single person who claims that he knows ALL the TAs, let alone has used ALL of them. Maybe you can provide us a list of TAs you have used here to impress us and show your credibility. Otherwise I have agree with other comments that some of your statements are really silly.

When you say "we find it hard to understand your claims", you mean you find it hard. And the reason you find it hard to understand my claims is because you have not spent years staring at a good depth of market platform. Spend six months staring at TT's X-trader or the Jigsaw depth and sales platform from jigsaw trading and then hit me up and tell me if your perspective has changed. The reason most people don't know anything about the order flow is because they don't watch the order flow and if they actually do try to watch it, they watch it on an inferior DOM which doesn't show all of the prints. For example, if you are watching the Ninja DOM, you will see a 5 lot trade but I'll see 1500 trade because I have a better platform. This makes a huge difference.

As far as TA, I've seen and used it all and none of it provides consistent results. If it did, this forum wouldn't exist because everyone on it would already be rich. You don't read a chart. A chart is black lines on a white screen which provides a graphical representation of PAST price action. The resistance and support levels you see on those charts were not created by the chart. They were created by traders buying and selling a lot of contracts and just because they did it once doesn't mean they will do it again. You have to be in the moment and you have to be reactionary. Like the other guy said in a previous post, there is no reason to take a 5 tick loss if you already know you're wrong when it's 2 ticks against you. How do you know you're wrong? You can see it in the order flow.

Anything you can see on a chart, you can see in the order flow. However, you can see lots of things in the order flow that you will never see on a chart.

 

[SFL Trader]

Ok. Maybe I haven't seen and used EVERY single TA development in history. I guess charts, bands, stochastics, MACD, moving averages, fibonacci, etc., etc. ad nauseum doesn't account for it all. I, personally, have NEVER met a trader who made money every year for 5 years straight using TA and I lived in Chicago, worked at a firm (which looked a lot like that picture from Di) and met my fair share of traders. Not any real money anyway. I HAVE met traders who have made money 10 years straight who were scalpers that read the tape, traded on the floor, traded off the DOM, etc. The point of the silly statement, to which I think you took too seriously and gave too much weight, is that if all those books, seminars, programs, etc. which teach TA actually worked, all the traders who read the books, took the courses and used the programs would be rich.

And they're not. The silly statement would be to say that they're not rich because they don't know how to read the TA the way they were supposed to read it. I've heard that before and it goes to your statement about "how did i use it". I used it like everyone else does. The way it's supposed to be used. You don't have a chart up because you're looking to trade a price right in the middle of the day's range. You have it up because you're looking to play tops, bottoms, double tops and bottoms, head and shoulders, blah.

And using the DOM could be construed as a form of TA but now we're getting into semantics and syntax. Define TA. It's usually defined (98% of the time) as indicators, charts and graphical stuff. Looking at a chart and making the decision to buy is not the same thing as looking at a guy who's stuck with 2000 contracts and knowing that he's about to dump his position because he can't take the pain anymore. This was how tape reading/pit trading started. If a floor trader can see that, he has a MUCH better feel of where the market is about to go than a person who looks at a chart. The idea behind the DOM is to follow that same line of thinking. It's an open auction. People tend to get lost in the blinking numbers and forget what's actually happening.

All that said, if you've made a million using TA, more power to you, sir. I commend thee. But you would have probably made 2 million if you learned a little something about the order flow. Just sayin'.

 

[SFL Trader]

DOM is overrated and the idea that you need a ‘good’ DOM is a fallacious claim made by vendors. I don’t use DOM at all.

Again, watch Xtrader or the Jigsaw depth and sales platform directly next to the Ninja Dom or the IB Dom and then come and talk to me and tell me there's no difference. And again, if you've made a million without it, more power to you.

 

[SFL Trader]

I suppose in the history of trading, which goes back at least 100 years, nobody made any money until the advent of DOM. WOW, look at all those pretty pictures...I must be wrong...

Trading goes back way more than 100 years and yes, there were charts but you're missing the point of what the dom is. 100+ years ago, there were guys standing around in a room yelling at each other conducting an auction. "Buy em, sell em, F you you no good son of b!#ch." This is what's actually happening. Only now it's on a screen through cyberspace. If you can't see the volume, you are at a disadvantage whether you make money or not. You're giving up an advantage that you should be using. If I can see that 1000 trade, 1000 trade, 500 trade, 10,000 trade, I can see that the 10,000 is probably going to slow down the move and cause a pullback or reversal. If you are watching the action on a chart, you have no idea why the market stopped or if it's likely to retrace or continue. You are most likely making trades using various risk/reward strategies, scaling, etc. and are giving away money that you might be able to save otherwise.

Just sayin'.

 

[DionysusToast]

go tiger!

 

[new_trader]

Trading goes back way more than 100 years and yes, there were charts but you're missing the point of what the dom is. 100+ years ago, there were guys standing around in a room yelling at each other conducting an auction. "Buy em, sell em, F you you no good son of b!#ch." This is what's actually happening. Only now it's on a screen through cyberspace. If you can't see the volume, you are at a disadvantage whether you make money or not. You're giving up an advantage that you should be using. If I can see that 1000 trade, 1000 trade, 500 trade, 10,000 trade, I can see that the 10,000 is probably going to slow down the move and cause a pullback or reversal. If you are watching the action on a chart, you have no idea why the market stopped or if it's likely to retrace or continue. You are most likely making trades using various risk/reward strategies, scaling, etc. and are giving away money that you might be able to save otherwise.

Just sayin'.

After reading your replies I am not even sure you understand what I am sayin’, you are just creating a straw man argument. 100 years ago there were highly successful tape readers who worked from an office a long way away from the floor of the stock exchange.

 

[futuretrader100]

I feel inclined to agree with new_trader. Are charts, bands, stochastics, MACD, moving averages, fibonacci, etc., etc. ad nauseum all you know about TAs?

What are the difference between TA, eg X_study's many different kinds volume indicators and your DOM trading style?

 

[rawrschach]

Trading goes back way more than 100 years and yes, there were charts but you're missing the point of what the dom is. 100+ years ago, there were guys standing around in a room yelling at each other conducting an auction. "Buy em, sell em, F you you no good son of b!#ch." This is what's actually happening. Only now it's on a screen through cyberspace. If you can't see the volume, you are at a disadvantage whether you make money or not. You're giving up an advantage that you should be using. If I can see that 1000 trade, 1000 trade, 500 trade, 10,000 trade, I can see that the 10,000 is probably going to slow down the move and cause a pullback or reversal. If you are watching the action on a chart, you have no idea why the market stopped or if it's likely to retrace or continue. You are most likely making trades using various risk/reward strategies, scaling, etc. and are giving away money that you might be able to save otherwise.

Just sayin'.

To be fair you're confusing time and sales/the tape to the DOM.

Jigsaw is great tho.

You don't need the DOM to make money. But to assume someone can't use it to their advantage is ignorant. Esp in bond futures.

 

[timsk]

Hi SFL,
Without wishing to take the thread off-topic, I'd be interested in your answer to a question I have.

Your style - and the focus of this thread - is watching the DoM ladder for fairly fast 'n furious day trading. In your experience, what tools do profitable traders use who trade a longer timeframe - say swing trading from a day or two to a few weeks at a time? Does TA have more relevance to these traders do you think - or perhaps some form of fundamental analysis takes precedence?
Tim.

 

[rawrschach]

Nothing really fast and furious about it tbh

probs calmer and more focussed daytrading than longer term if youre making money

 

[DionysusToast]

Hi SFL,
Without wishing to take the thread off-topic, I'd be interested in your answer to a question I have.

Your style - and the focus of this thread - is watching the DoM ladder for fairly fast 'n furious day trading. In your experience, what tools do profitable traders use who trade a longer timeframe - say swing trading from a day or two to a few weeks at a time? Does TA have more relevance to these traders do you think - or perhaps some form of fundamental analysis takes precedence?
Tim.

When you looked @ the DOM Timsk - which instruments did you watch?

 

[timsk]

When you looked @ the DOM Timsk - which instruments did you watch?

Same ones as you DT (mostly) - but you already know that!

Tim.

 

[DionysusToast]

Same ones as you DT (mostly) - but you already know that!

Tim.

No - I don't - would it kill you to be specific?

 

[Shakone]

And they're not. The silly statement would be to say that they're not rich because they don't know how to read the TA the way they were supposed to read it. I've heard that before and it goes to your statement about "how did i use it". I used it like everyone else does. The way it's supposed to be used. .

Do you honestly expect to have success with TA, using it the way everyone else does, and how it's 'supposed' to be used (whatever that means)? Actually, replace TA in the previous sentence with any other method. Do you really expect to succeed that way?

Looking at a chart and making the decision to buy is not the same thing as looking at a guy who's stuck with 2000 contracts and knowing that he's about to dump his position because he can't take the pain anymore.

How do you know the person is stuck with 2000 contracts, and about to dump? How do you know those 2000 contracts were entry and not exit?

 

[new_trader]

How do you know the person is stuck with 2000 contracts, and about to dump? How do you know those 2000 contracts were entry and not exit?

Because he is using the very superior DOM that has a 'Pain-o-meter'

 

[futuretrader100]

All those props shops use chart and TAs too, as those pretty picture shows. They probably paid more than $1000+a month for charting and TA software.

I guess following youtube will save them lots of money than paying for the magic DOM, unless of course TT gives them huge discount.

When were those pictures taken?

Well there you have it.

All those prop shops paying $1000+ a month for XTrader - well, they are just patsies following a fallacious claim made by Trading Technologies, Inc.

They should be following N_Ts journal on T2W instead.... He doesn't use the DOM, he uses YouTube :clap:

 

[rawrschach]

Prop shop traders can trade how they want. The best one I know uses only one ladder,no charts.

 

[futuretrader100]

What is your definition of "the best one"?

Prop shop traders can trade how they want. The best one I know uses only one ladder,no charts.

 

[rawrschach]

makes most money, trades biggest size

edit: well theres more to it than that but im not gonna tell you someone elses personal details or anything that will identify him

 

[futuretrader100]

Or reveal your fictitious story?

makes most money, trades biggest size

edit: well theres more to it than that but im not gonna tell you someone elses personal details or anything that will identify him