New Trader looking for answers

[No Risk Trader]

Good sense!

Apparently you are not an options trader, or have chosen to engage in risky positions.

Nonsense.

 

[timsk]

Hi justtrader,

None of the posts were realistic it was all gloom and doom.

Oh, well that's not my impression at all. The OP makes it clear in the title that s/he's a newbie and that s/he is looking for a specific return starting from scratch. Some replies were a little more emphatic than others but, generally, would you not agree that it would be quite a coup for the OP to come back next year and say that s/he achieved their profit target? Not impossible by any means - but it would be quite unusual don't you think?

There was a time on t2w when a realistic post would gone something like this
"Study, learn ,practice demo , test with small amounts etc.and if it does not work call it a day
At the end of the day if someone wants to trade, you cannot put them off, which seemed to be the unsaid statement, in most of the posts. being realistic would also call for a bit of encouragement and pointing in the right direction as per what I said above..

Yes, and there still is. I would say your comments more or less characterize the essence of my reply in post #5 on the first page of this thread.
Tim.

 

[pboyles]

Good sense!

Apparently you are not an options trader, or have chosen to engage in risky positions.

More words of wisdom from yet another vendor.

 

[justtrader]

Ah! yes post 5.
Apologies I should read the whole thread before opening my big mouth!
I am afraid I will not give you a good argument Tim, I am a bit of one liner pussy debater.
Also was not aware the OP was looking for an immediate return, not easy as you point out.
Maybe the options guy who just joined will show us how.

 

[No Risk Trader]

Not a vendor, but not surprised by more comments from speculators instead of participators.

Risk-Neutral, zero-cost strategies allow "experienced" Options traders to do just that...participate in the markets, not speculate in the markets. There are no bad days in the markets, just opportunities.

Surely with all your experience and narrative insight you know that when trading options, money is made when markets are up and money is made when markets are down.....Yes sure you do!

More words of wisdom from yet another vendor.

 

[Steve]

I'm going back a few posts here to NVP's point about why people continue to believe this stuff and Shakone's reply about it being human nature. I think that is spot on and it is not just a modern phenomenon. Those of us schooled in trading will no doubt have read one of the seminal works, 'Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds' (i'm sorry to be boring and by mentioning one of the books everyone talks about but at least I did not mention Jesse Livemore, oops!) which clearly shows how this behaviour goes back generations.

I think it is worse nowadays because we have become more and more an instant gratification society. I you want to be a singer, gone are the years of hard graft travelling the motorways and gigging in smoke filled clubs - appear on a TV show and hey presto! Overnight stardom. If you want to be a plumber, don't waste your time as an apprentice doing all the rubbish jobs, just enrol on a course and that's it - you are a plumber. I could go on but I'm on soapbox now so i'll put it away.

The point is that because of all of this, when people see claims of making huge sums from very little,and it all being so easy, they believe it. Why wouldn't they?

For some firms they know all of this all too well and their huge marketing machines are geared to maximising every opportunity to play on this need for easy money. And no, I will not name them because you already know who they are.

In fact, one of the things I have been thinking about is having a 'sticky' (a horrible term but I can't think of a better one right now) dedicated to spotting a rotten deal. We obviously have to be careful legally but a list of 'characteristics of people not to buy from' might be a good start. For example, point 1 might be along the lines of, 'if they promise x% from y% it is never going to happen because..'

Most of the points will already have been made in various posts so it might not be too difficult to pull it together.

I know it won't stop people from piling in headlong because they don't want to hear the truth. But if it saves a few more and keeps the money out of these undeserving pockets it has to be worth it doesn't it?

Any volunteers to pull an initial list together?

Steve

 

[wackypete2]

The point is that because of all of this, when people see claims of making huge sums from very little,and it all being so easy, they believe it. Why wouldn't they?

The majority of people DON'T believe this stuff. Anyone who has experienced a few years of "life" realizes that no matter what anyone says there's no free lunch. Those that believe in easy riches are either young and naive, or desperate but these are only a minority of people. Unfortunately people in those categories are rarely swayed by the truth. Obviously though on a forum like this we see them all stop by here for the direction to the road to riches.

Peter

 

[wackypete2]

Not a vendor

eh?

You can be assured not to lose your money and generate monthly income using Options.

double eh?

This is the blatant cr@p from vendors that needs to be off these boards.

Peter

 

[No Risk Trader]

You don't know what you are talking about or you misunderstand.

How is trading stocks, less risky than trading Options on Stocks?

In the stock market you have unlimited risk, with Options your risk is defined and if structured properly risk-neutral. Are there any Options traders here, or at least equity Options Traders?

An options trader can bring in profits whether the market is up or down again depending on the strategy ....this is Options 101. I guess you don't know that you can make money shorting stocks, because if you did and understood options, you would know you can also make money doing short-calls. You do know what a short call is don't you?

If a broker or expert like yourself things XYZ is a good buy at 50 because you think it will go up, then as an Options Trader you would get paid to buy the stock at 50 or lower and reduce you acquisition cost....are you keeping up sir??

If XYZ is at $50 and you can get paid $2, $5, $10 to buy it from someone else....then certainly if all your research and expertise made you think it was a good buy at $50, it would be a better buy at $48, $45, or $40.....you did get the math right??? Let me help you, see you were PAID UPFRONT either $2, $5, $10,(lowering your net cost to $48, $45, or $40).

If that is crap.....then what does that make your comment? Most wise sir!

eh?



double eh?

This is the blatant cr@p from vendors that needs to be off these boards.

Peter

 

[wackypete2]

Your entire post above is worthless because none of what you said assures you will not lose money and generate a monthly income. That is what you said, right?
None of what you posted is a risk- neutral or zero cost strategy.

How is trading stocks, less risky than trading Options on Stocks?

I never said is or isn't but that's not what your post was about. You are backtracking now. "Less risky" doesn't equal assurances of profit or monthly income.

If XYZ is at $50 and you can get paid $2, $5, $10 to buy it from someone else....then certainly if all your research and expertise made you think it was a good buy at $50, it would be a better buy at $48, $45, or $40.....you did get the math right??? Let me help you, see you were PAID UPFRONT either $2, $5, $10,(lowering your net cost to $48, $45, or $40).

And if the following day the company surprisingly announced $billions in trading losses, nearing bankruptcy, would it still be a good buy @ $40?


How about losing the "I am better than all of you attitude" and maybe you can engage in a discussion properly.

Peter

 

[No Risk Trader]

You decided to make a comment about something you clearly no nothing about and referred to my post negatively. I did not provide said strategy...why would I? I stated risk-neutral strategies assure no loses can be structured in Options. This sir is Options 101. You can guarantee ..protect...assure any options authorized stock from loses. There are transactional cost, but if you own a stock you certainly can protect it's value.

Per your other ridiculous comment....my example compared buying a stock to protecting said stock. If said purchaser wanted to buy XYZ, then a provided how via the Options scenario one would acquire it.

And to further add to the point....if as you suggest, the company of said stock bought at 40.00, went bankrupt.....and Options writer would have not only already held a protective position, to limit their risk, but would have sold it to someone who was bullish on the company.

I don't know you. You choose to criticize my response....and clearly have no idea what you are talking about as it pertains to Equity Options.

"None of what you posted is a risk-neutral strategy". Of course not....but you get an "E" for Effort.

Your entire post above is worthless because none of what you said assures you will not lose money and generate a monthly income. That is what you said, right?
None of what you posted is a risk- neutral or zero cost strategy.


I never said is or isn't but that's not what your post was about. You are backtracking now. "Less risky" doesn't equal assurances of profit or monthly income.



And if the following day the company surprisingly announced $billions in trading losses, nearing bankruptcy, would it still be a good buy @ $40?


How about losing the "I am better than all of you attitude" and maybe you can engage in a discussion properly.

Peter

 

[No Risk Trader]

Per your last comment:

"...How about losing the "I am better than all of you attitude" and maybe you can engage in a discussion properly..."

You should have taken your own advice before making negative comments about something you clearly know nothing about. If I had a "...better than..attitude...", it would not be with "...all of you...". Just You!

Your entire post above is worthless because none
of what you said assures you will not lose money and generate a monthly income. That is what you said, right?
None of what you posted is a risk- neutral or zero cost strategy.


I never said is or isn't but that's not what your post was about. You are backtracking now. "Less risky" doesn't equal assurances of profit or monthly income.



And if the following day the company surprisingly announced $billions in trading losses, nearing bankruptcy, would it still be a good buy @ $40?


How about losing the "I am better than all of you attitude" and maybe you can engage in a discussion properly.

Peter

 

[wackypete2]

Unreal.
Your first post here is short and assures us we cannot lose with options. No mention of buying stock, protecting stock, etc... Reread it.

You dazzle us with mention of risk neutral and zero cost strategies then go long winded and nothing you say related to that. When I pointed this out you even agreed with me.

I was critical of your your posts. You however have consistently belittled me with your posting style.

You state this is all options 101 but refuse to show a strategy. Why? Can't be too secret if it's Options 101

This is classic vendorspeak: You guarantee (assurances), then backtrack when called out (buy/protect stock, not options, less risky, etc...), and get frustrated to the point of belittling other posters.

I rest my case. Have a good night.

Peter

 

[No Risk Trader]

Comedy....

Before you refer to someones post as "crap" and suggest "banning" other commentators....know what you are talking about. You wouldn't "recommend" what you referred to as day trading...but clearly you do not have the experience or knowledge of Options market to have an opinion at all.

You then feel a strategy should have been given. Of course you!

This is indeed Options 101. You sir as someone who would not recommend etc.....should know this...or what is the basis of your negative recommendation? Exactly! Nothing!

I guaranteed nothing, to anyone....and I don't get frustrated. You attacked my comment and suggested it belonged with those that should be banned. I defended my position.....if that exposed your lack of knowledge on the subject. So be it....next time know what you are talking about, before you criticize.

Again, since your comment included what you would not recommend regarding Options....yet you don't have any expertise on the subject, how it could be accomplished or even realize that within the totality of my responses is a strategy...what is your comment worth? What was that about "crap"? "Banning"?....Yes, have a good night indeed.

 

[pboyles]

I'm going back a few posts here to NVP's point about why people continue to believe this stuff and Shakone's reply about it being human nature. I think that is spot on and it is not just a modern phenomenon. Those of us schooled in trading will no doubt have read one of the seminal works, 'Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds' (i'm sorry to be boring and by mentioning one of the books everyone talks about but at least I did not mention Jesse Livemore, oops!) which clearly shows how this behaviour goes back generations.

I think it is worse nowadays because we have become more and more an instant gratification society. I you want to be a singer, gone are the years of hard graft travelling the motorways and gigging in smoke filled clubs - appear on a TV show and hey presto! Overnight stardom. If you want to be a plumber, don't waste your time as an apprentice doing all the rubbish jobs, just enrol on a course and that's it - you are a plumber. I could go on but I'm on soapbox now so i'll put it away.

The point is that because of all of this, when people see claims of making huge sums from very little,and it all being so easy, they believe it. Why wouldn't they?

For some firms they know all of this all too well and their huge marketing machines are geared to maximising every opportunity to play on this need for easy money. And no, I will not name them because you already know who they are.

In fact, one of the things I have been thinking about is having a 'sticky' (a horrible term but I can't think of a better one right now) dedicated to spotting a rotten deal. We obviously have to be careful legally but a list of 'characteristics of people not to buy from' might be a good start. For example, point 1 might be along the lines of, 'if they promise x% from y% it is never going to happen because..'

Most of the points will already have been made in various posts so it might not be too difficult to pull it together.

I know it won't stop people from piling in headlong because they don't want to hear the truth. But if it saves a few more and keeps the money out of these undeserving pockets it has to be worth it doesn't it?

Any volunteers to pull an initial list together?

Steve

Anyone claiming to have a 'no risk' trading strategy or 'guaranteed monthly income'.

 

[pboyles]

...or a website with a photo of them sitting on the beach with a laptop, or indeed on a boat. Perfect example below.

Flag-Trader System, Guy Cohen

 

[pboyles]

Any website with the words forex, secrets and millionaire is a guaranteed scam.

 

[pboyles]

Or indeed crap like this,

'This winter I will be holidaying on a private beach in the Caribbean, followed by skiing in one of the most exclusive resorts in Switzerland. All thanks to a few hours a week spent putting my Secret Flag-Trader 'robot' to work. I'll even be able to trade when I'm on vacation if I choose to.'

 

[NVP]

Comedy....

Before you refer to someones post as "crap" and suggest "banning" other commentators....know what you are talking about. You wouldn't "recommend" what you referred to as day trading...but clearly you do not have the experience or knowledge of Options market to have an opinion at all.

You then feel a strategy should have been given. Of course you!

This is indeed Options 101. You sir as someone who would not recommend etc.....should know this...or what is the basis of your negative recommendation? Exactly! Nothing!

I guaranteed nothing, to anyone....and I don't get frustrated. You attacked my comment and suggested it belonged with those that should be banned. I defended my position.....if that exposed your lack of knowledge on the subject. So be it....next time know what you are talking about, before you criticize.

Again, since your comment included what you would not recommend regarding Options....yet you don't have any expertise on the subject, how it could be accomplished or even realize that within the totality of my responses is a strategy...what is your comment worth? What was that about "crap"? "Banning"?....Yes, have a good night indeed.

fair do's

so - to the humbly uninitiated of us here at T2W

please illuminate us with some education on options with some charts and comments and live calls .....

N

 

[NVP]

Hi NVP,
Although I'm not a Mod, I guess I am 'old school' and I am on the staff - so I assume your question is directed at me as much as anyone else? The answer beats me too. One thing is for sure though, they don't get it from T2W discussion forums - as the replies to this thread demonstrate.

I'm the first to admit that the site has lots wrong with it and there's much that can - and will - be done to make it better. In the meantime, for new members like the OP who want to gain accurate info from experienced traders - then this is the place to be. We may not have told him what he wants to hear and he may decide to ignore the advice he's received - but it does underline the continuing value and relevance of the forum.
Tim.

agreed - there are a lot of us here spreading the word to unsuspecting newbies.........at least it gives them a shot before the sharks circle...then its their own fault and hopefully it doesnt cost them too much to learn what we have learnt over the years from our own experiences !

N