New to Trading - Financial Professional

[happyhippy]

Hi,

I am sure many of you have been burned, wasted time and money etc on various teachers, seminars, companies, books, courses etc that will teach you to trade.

So I am writing for your advice but also it is good karma to share it with others.

I am new to trading and so far I have only been learning from gurus such as Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers etc and downloaded some 1000 ebooks on trading. What fascinated me was the 'turtle' experiment.

I am a qualified CISI fund manager and have even set up a hedge fund (for real estate stuff no related to trading).

So , what I am asking is this...

1 What is the best way to learn? Books, companies, mentors?
2 I believe in practical experience...is there a (successful) prop shop or coop I can sit down with the guys on and just learn? I can, of course, offer a lot in return vis a vis the fund etc. but without being gouged for thousands of pounds on overrated courses.
3 I am interested in commodities, equities, CFDs and ..of course forex

Jack

 

[justtellingitasitis]

My view, which many wouldn't share here, would be that you have to learn via a company. It's extremely unlikely anyone else other than those trading and having been trained to trade via a firm will make money.

Grad schemes, joining the back office and working through (ridiculously difficult), via consultancy... there are different ways to end up being trained by a firm, but I believe very very firmly, hence I eulogise about it here, that you have to be trained professionally, and you have to trade professionally. As in, as an employee of a firm that wants you to trade.

Some might make money trading independently, but the odds on making a career out of it, whilst self funded, are horrendously small. It's like the black swan no-one will mention - it's ridiculously unlikely you would succeed and earn a decent salary on your todd.

To give an idea of how tricky it is, have a look at the following:

Power Shift Trader - London Energy Trading House, c.£35k - Commodities jobs and careers in UK

Sure, you could earn more even in a junior role. As a senior power trader, you could earn an absolute fortunte. But look at the qualifications they want, look at the salary they are offering, and think how much training it requires before they'd really let you loose. BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, AND REQUIRES A LOT OF TRAINING.

GS recently had a role going for a junior nat gas man, paying around £50k... That requires some serious experience, and a top drawer academic background, and even then all you are doing is buying options on yourself you'll succeed.

Get a job with a decent firm, work hard, let them train you, do everything you can to learn, and you'll make a good living. You'll make a good living even if trading isn't the thing for you - there's MO, risk, compiance, sales, and a whole loads of other departments. Project management? Systems development? All jobs it is relatively straightforward to be earning £70 - £100k by your early thirties. And that is without losing your house, selling your soul, gambling, or having to put up every penny of your capital up front.

For me, it's a no brainer, at least learn to trade through a proper firm.

 

[Pi3141]

^ what you have said is completely sound, rational and reasonable. But for me, and no doubt some others who trade/want to trade, the reason why we trade is summarised by this maxim:

"Money won, is twice as sweet as money earned."

 

[1961trader]

Hi, Jack
Welcome to the world of trading!
There are 3 ways to learn trading:
1. Get a job as suggested above
2. Get an education from a trading trainer( there are a few good ones)
3. Teach yourself - this requires skills that new starters don't have. There are a couple of good free resources/training courses on the net. If you PM me I will provide the details. At least i you have a go with these first, you will pick up the basics before you spend any money.
1961

 

[maxieme]

Hi,
I am sure many of you have been burned, wasted time and money etc on various teachers, seminars, companies, books, courses etc that will teach you to trade.

No, they are not wasted. It is just the learning process.

So I am writing for your advice but also it is good karma to share it with others.

Thank you!

I am new to trading and so far I have only been learning from gurus such as Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers etc and downloaded some 1000 ebooks on trading. What fascinated me was the 'turtle' experiment.

No gurus in trading. Only someone who can make money and someone who cannot. Fascinating about the "turtle experiment"? Check out the wikipedia page for "turtle's father" Richard Dennis
Dennis managed pools of capital for others in the markets for a while, but withdrew from such management in the spring of 1988 after his clients suffered heavy losses. In the Black Monday stock market crash of 1987, he reportedly lost $10 million,[8] with a total of $50 million reportedly lost in 1987-88.[2] In 1990 his firm settled investor complaints of his failure to follow his own rules, for over $2.5 million, without admitting or denying any wrongdoing.[9] He also managed funds for some time in the mid and late 1990s, closing these operations after losses in the summer of 2000.
Want to know to whom he lost his money? Google this name "Paul Tudor Jones".

1 What is the best way to learn? Books, companies, mentors?

Trade with a good mentor

2 I believe in practical experience...is there a (successful) prop shop or coop I can sit down with the guys on and just learn? I can, of course, offer a lot in return vis a vis the fund etc. but without being gouged for thousands of pounds on overrated courses.

Sorry I don't know this one, Can anyone else help?

Good luck!

 

[happyhippy]

I want to thank you guys for the feedback. Basically, the problem if you can call it that is that many of the prop firms have to select out from armies of graduates. A couple of years too old or whatever and 'the computer says no'. The people they hire are not necessarily gifted, they just passed through the selection. This is why the advertised job pays such a low salary...too much supply on the job market and employers can take advantage.

What I will do is

1 Join a small boutque firm and offer to work there for free or do some boring equities analyst work for an experienced guy/ team. Of course, this is difficult to do when you have bills to pay, but I can manage

2 Learn independently ..if anything this will help me to learn what not to do

I wholeheartedly agree with the earlier post about mortgaging the house etc... Trading can be like gambling and for many , 'the computer said no' in terms of recruitment and they try to do independently what the corporates can do . It is possible but very difficult without the research teams, training, brand and team mates. The odds can be stacked against you (I belive over 95 p of traders lose money). Also, going against the idea that the system is meritocratic, the 'game is rigged.' The big banks get zero interest loans from he BOE ...if I had a zero interest loan I would make money...in fact, a trained monkey could...many of them are 'on the inside' as witnessed by Brevan Howard's links to the LIBOR...a good strategy to become a trader should involve being 'on the inside' of a rigged game (of course by this I do not mean insider trading just understanding a cartel when you see one).

If anyone out there knows of or is such a boutique / flexible operation please send me a message... In exchange I can give access to my off shore hedge funds and a heck of a lot more than just making the tea.

 

[FringFX]

1 What is the best way to learn? Books, companies, mentors?

probably companies and mentors are best but i prefer being self-taught.
good companies and mentors are probably rare, and more importantly, not easily accessible to most traders.