Is day trading/home trading dead and gone?

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sonofcablemonster

0 0
iirc you use Ninja?
Why not try a half way house to start with.
Discretionary entry, then use Ninjas ATM for management and exit.
You can still test it reasonably quickly.

C:\Documents and Settings\PC name\My Documents\NinjaTrader 7\db
Find the Ninja SDF in there, holds all live and sim trade data.
Copy paste to a backup folder.
Advance to new day, copy paste previous days SDF into folder,
take entry, set replay speed to 500x, let ATM handle the rest.
Then copy SDF to backup - rinse and repeat.

Tip - as SDF filesize grows (larger than 10mb) loading times become slow.
Basically down to Ninja relying on .net framework for certain database duties.
Workaround is to have a copy of a blank SDF.
Paste blank SDF into this folder before advancing to next day (backup SDf with trade data first though):
C:\Documents and Settings\PC name\My Documents\NinjaTrader 7\db

The above is a much easier start, or try Ninjas code wizard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaaqCBoqYxI&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL4D56536A44DD7105
Code wizard is very basic though, unsurprisingly indicators feature heavily,
so you will have to work hard to get around that limitation.
Other than that, its full on C# time:

Basic tutorials:
http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html#c++tutorial
http://www.csharp-station.com/Tutorial.aspx
http://www.pvtuts.com/csharp/csharp-introduction

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/67ef8sbd.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/618ayhy6.aspx
http://stackoverflow.com/

thanks LV. I was going to hit you and departed Random up for the best way to go. yeah I use Ninja & TT, TT much better for profiles.

For me it would very much be the raw C route. I would definitely like to do some modelling and I know I have to put the time in to get the reward.
 
L

Liquid validity

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thanks LV. I was going to hit you and departed Random up for the best way to go. yeah I use Ninja & TT, TT much better for profiles.

For me it would very much be the raw C route. I would definitely like to do some modelling and I know I have to put the time in to get the reward.
I've seen you mention using the tape quite a few times.
Trying to program anything that utilises the tape is getting
into pretty high end stuff (HFT quant type techniques).
Discretionary entry and ATM would allow you to use the tape for entry.
You could also use TT profiles, but take trade with Ninja ATM, or stay within X trader.
Just a thought, as complex C# coding can make you pull your hair out
unless you are very good (which I am not).
 
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L

Liquid validity

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Seriously DT, if you think that stuff is the soft option it isn't,
personally I actually think the likelihood of failure is higher.
Its an area riddled with all sorts of traps & pitfalls.
Not trying to put you off at all, just letting you know the kind of curve
you are up against :)

If that doesn't bother you, all good.
 
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Liquid validity

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Wrong link...:innocent:

thanks LV. I was going to hit you and departed Random up for the best way to go. yeah I use Ninja & TT, TT much better for profiles.
BTW, yeah Random, he knows far more than I ever will about this stuff.
Shame he left really.
 
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darktone

Veteren member
4,016 1,084
Seriously DT, if you think that stuff is the soft option it isn't,
personally I actually think the likelihood of failure is higher.
Its an area riddled with all sorts of traps pitfalls.
Not trying to put you off at all, just letting you know the kind of curve
you are up against :)

If that doesn't bother you, all good.
Honestly mate, im no more interested than you are in the psych tbh. If you had to sum up the general process in a few lines, to a 10 yr old, how would it go.

Does this site give a general gist iyo or just a sales pitch ?
http://www.quantstart.com/articles/beginners-guide-to-quantitative-trading

BTW, yeah Random, he knows far more than I ever will about this stuff.
Shame he left really.
I second that, I did ask him iirc but i think he thought it beyond my understanding. He could be right ;)
 
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S

sonofcablemonster

0 0
I've seen you mention using the tape quite a few times.
Trying to program anything that utilises the tape is getting
into pretty high end stuff (HFT quant type techniques).
Discretionary entry and ATM would allow you to use the tape for entry.
You could also use TT profiles, but take trade with Ninja ATM, or stay within X trader.
Just a thought, as complex C# coding can make you pull your hair out
unless you are very good (which I am not).

Hey LV. Yeah I concur. Any automated stuff I get into will not utilise the tape or 'order flow'. I dont want to be competing in that space. I certainly use the tape in my point and click tarding. my trading is sort of like using the market structure inc statistical distribution (if applicable) and putting it in the context of game play (market psychology) w/news flow awareness to identify levels or areas I am interested in playing. Once I have these levels/areas I use order flow (larger prints/absorption) to judge exits. These are normally 1 to 5 tick moves, I am happy to take 1 tick if I am leaning on a large print like the 1000 lot in the bobl at lunchtime today. It was a simple play where I was either going to make +1, scratch or -1. I am only looking for 10 to 15 ticks a day. high prob if you get the fill but will kill you if you dont have discpline.

If I was going to get into automated stuff I would be very much focusing on market structure. Things like where a market has moved quickly in one direction a certain multiple of ATR in a given time period t and retraced a certain %, there are opportunities there for sho however it needs to be underpinned by a rigorous statistical framework.

GTTY
 
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L

Liquid validity

0 0
Does this site give a general gist iyo or just a sales pitch ?
http://www.quantstart.com/articles/beginners-guide-to-quantitative-trading

Well I thought it was a vague waffly intro right up to the point it said this:
Contrary to popular belief it is actually quite straightforward to find profitable strategies through various public sources.
Just go and look at the amount of dross on FF to see what I mean.
There is very little of value in the public domain on this stuff, for good reason.

It does make some good and valid points though, can't see anything for sale,
and apart from the implied ease, its not a bad intro I spose.

Thats just a cursory skim read of the first page, so bear that in mind.
 
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L

Liquid validity

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Hey LV. Yeah I concur. Any automated stuff I get into will not utilise the tape or 'order flow'. I dont want to be competing in that space. I certainly use the tape in my point and click tarding. my trading is sort of like using the market structure inc statistical distribution (if applicable) and putting it in the context of game play (market psychology) w/news flow awareness to identify levels or areas I am interested in playing. Once I have these levels/areas I use order flow (larger prints/absorption) to judge exits. These are normally 1 to 5 tick moves, I am happy to take 1 tick if I am leaning on a large print like the 1000 lot in the bobl at lunchtime today. It was a simple play where I was either going to make +1, scratch or -1. I am only looking for 10 to 15 ticks a day. high prob if you get the fill but will kill you if you dont have discpline.

If I was going to get into automated stuff I would be very much focusing on market structure. Things like where a market has moved quickly in one direction a certain multiple of ATR in a given time period t and retraced a certain %, there are opportunities there for sho however it needs to be underpinned by a rigorous statistical framework.

GTTY

Yeah, as I thought, not saying you can't do it.
All I know is I can't.
Programming that approach would be pretty complex.
I just went the semi random entry route for simplicity.
I'd be curious to know Random's take on this actually.
 
L

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ramo88

Junior member
34 1
forexmospherian and Pferd thanks for your insights

the following posts,thanks for your input, but you confirmed my fear; automated trading and algo's waiting to ruin a position which traditionally was the right trade to take.

So I came from a prop trading floor which was maybe still old school and didn't adapt? yeh thats probably it.

Will i be able to do automated trading? not so sure but good to see some people still doing the home trading and adapting.

a lot of time and money has to go in this and i guess i have to accept that I may put that in and not get a return.

I was also told 'wait until next year see how things are then'

if i did wait and save bit more money ready to back myself, either on a floor or at home, what do you guys think; will things get better ? ( i know you can't predict the future but in your experienced/professional opinion) is there fundamental factors that could make things better next year for trading at home?
 
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Pferd

Active member
132 16
forexmospherian and Pferd thanks for your insights

the following posts,thanks for your input, but you confirmed my fear; automated trading and algo's waiting to ruin a position which traditionally was the right trade to take.

So I came from a prop trading floor which was maybe still old school and didn't adapt? yeh thats probably it.

Will i be able to do automated trading? not so sure but good to see some people still doing the home trading and adapting.

a lot of time and money has to go in this and i guess i have to accept that I may put that in and not get a return.

I was also told 'wait until next year see how things are then'

if i did wait and save bit more money ready to back myself, either on a floor or at home, what do you guys think; will things get better ? ( i know you can't predict the future but in your experienced/professional opinion) is there fundamental factors that could make things better next year for trading at home?

Well, I guess if we look at the beginning of this year, there are some hints that the situation is improving. However, until we live in a Central Bankers planned world, I can not see any real chances of long term improvements. They have too much at stake and will not cease their current manipulation of the markets willingly. In my point of view, only external events such as serious social unrest, a natural catastrophe or some sort of loss of confidence in Central Banks planning will return markets to a "normal" condition, where opportunities are more equal for everybody.

For the time being is little to no volume, litte to no volatility and therefore manipulators (humans or computers) are having and will continue having a great time.

If right now you want to be part of the market, the opportunity is in medium to long term investment in shares, as they keep going up regardless of any fundamental or techical matter. But bear in mind that as everything is rigged, this situation can change overnight and the stocks can plunge violently. Therefore, although they are medium-long term positions, they need constant supervision as if they were five minute trades. Also, bear in mind that we are speaking here about very moderate returns, unless you are able to catch something like Tesla or Netflix right at the beginning of the road. Also you can argue that we must be approaching the end of the road for that kind of trades soon, but I have been hearing that for a while and Tesla has got to 200,- US$ in the meantime. So God knows where this madness is going to stop.

Otherwise, stay on the sidelines learning about the market until the opportunity comes back. It surprises me for how long they have been able to keep this charade going, but I guess one day it will end. At the moment patience is the name of the game.
 
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S

sonofcablemonster

0 0
Well, I guess if we look at the beginning of this year, there are some hints that the situation is improving. However, until we live in a Central Bankers planned world, I can not see any real chances of long term improvements. They have too much at stake and will not cease their current manipulation of the markets willingly. In my point of view, only external events such as serious social unrest, a natural catastrophe or some sort of loss of confidence in Central Banks planning will return markets to a "normal" condition, where opportunities are more equal for everybody.

For the time being is little to no volume, litte to no volatility and therefore manipulators (humans or computers) are having and will continue having a great time.

If right now you want to be part of the market, the opportunity is in medium to long term investment in shares, as they keep going up regardless of any fundamental or techical matter. But bear in mind that as everything is rigged, this situation can change overnight and the stocks can plunge violently. Therefore, although they are medium-long term positions, they need constant supervision as if they were five minute trades. Also, bear in mind that we are speaking here about very moderate returns, unless you are able to catch something like Tesla or Netflix right at the beginning of the road. Also you can argue that we must be approaching the end of the road for that kind of trades soon, but I have been hearing that for a while and Tesla has got to 200,- US$ in the meantime. So God knows where this madness is going to stop.

Otherwise, stay on the sidelines learning about the market until the opportunity comes back. It surprises me for how long they have been able to keep this charade going, but I guess one day it will end. At the moment patience is the name of the game.

sorry dont agree :D. great opportunities in equities and bonds both intraday/position outrights and spreads.
 
L

Liquid validity

0 0
Discretionary entry, then use Ninjas ATM for management and exit.
You can still test it reasonably quickly.

C:\Documents and Settings\PC name\My Documents\NinjaTrader 7\db
Find the Ninja SDF in there, holds all live and sim trade data.
Copy paste to a backup folder.
Advance to new day, copy paste previous days SDF into folder,
take entry, set replay speed to 500x, let ATM handle the rest.
Then copy SDF to backup - rinse and repeat.

Tip - as SDF filesize grows (larger than 10mb) loading times become slow.
Basically down to Ninja relying on .net framework for certain database duties.
Workaround is to have a copy of a blank SDF.
Paste blank SDF into this folder before advancing to next day (backup SDf with trade data first though):
C:\Documents and Settings\PC name\My Documents\NinjaTrader 7\db

If you choose the replay testing route, forgot to mention data sources:
Get the replay data from here:
http://marketreplaydata.com/
Otherwise you need to record your own data, or buy tick data:
http://www.tickdata.com/
Note - if you buy tick data, you will have to use Sierra chart as ninja
will not replay tick data.

http://marketreplaydata.com/
The data there is not perfect (no consistent problems) but I found the
YM 06-13 contract had a few missing days at contract start (may well be more problems, I don't know).
Still not bad as its free though.
 
 
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