graduate trader without an internship

[glaucon]

Hi,

I've just finished my second year at Warwick studying Economics. I wanted to seek the advice of experienced traders here regarding their honest appraisal of my situation.

I have been trading CFDs for around 7 months and done relatively well. I'm a little down on my portfolio, but certainly less so than I was at the beginning. I trade usually between lectures, put in my stops and limit orders and let the market work for me. I have been day-trading since summer began. I've attended a multitude of seminars and have a nice little library of trading books whose strategies and psychologies I've tried to master trade on trade. I also have an excellent grasp of technical analysis and can program in C/C++ pretty well. I love trading. Analysing charts before and after the trading day, executing trades and going over my trading journal have become an absolutely integral part of my daily routine and I absolutely love it. It's difficult to get over a loss on the day but having a journal has certainly accelerated the rate at which I've managed to learn from my so-called impulse trades. It's the best thing I've ever taken up.

Like a lot of people out there, I was unsuccessful in otaining an internship this year. At the time of my applications (around August last year), I was conflicted as to which area I wanted to apply to. I therefore applied to a multitude of investment banks in a multitude of positions and in retrospect, struggled to focus my applications and to show real desire to work within a certain division. IB, Actuary, Accountancy, Insurance, Invesment Management and Trading were all places that I applied to. In this competitive environment, you can't blag it, just for the sake of gettingsomething beneficial to do over the summer. After most of the application deadlines had passed, I started trading seriously, initially with paper, and then with a CFD account. It's become a passion of mine and every day is a self-correcting process in which I try to better the mindset and focus with which I approach my next trade. I don't care if I make a loss, I just ensure that I stick to my setups and risk/reward calculations.

The question I have for you is whether you can gauge the extent to which somebody like me, who will undoubtedly immerse himself in trading all summer, will be disadvantaged in my Graduate Analyst applications because I have not obtained a formal trading internship this summer? I intend to start applying later this summer for Trading roles. If I can show them my P&L during my interviews and show my desire to work as a junior trader, to what extent do you think this could compensate for my failure to obtain an internship? Do you think I could do something this summer to improve my CV and ultimately my prospects?

In terms of my credentials, I have 4As at A-Level and First Class marks in both my first and second year on my uni course. So I do have those minimum requirements banks are looking for. I'm gearing my modules towards Financial Economics, Econometrics and Mathematical Economics, if that makes any difference at all.

If you could provide any advice, it would be immensely appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[engineer00]

The question I have for you is whether you can gauge the extent to which somebody like me, who will undoubtedly immerse himself in trading all summer, will be disadvantaged in my Graduate Analyst applications because I have not obtained a formal trading internship this summer?

No, I see no significant disadvantage.

I intend to start applying later this summer for Trading roles. If I can show them my P&L during my interviews and show my desire to work as a junior trader, to what extent do you think this could compensate for my failure to obtain an internship? Do you think I could do something this summer to improve my CV and ultimately my prospects?

I don't think this is very important since many firms do look for a 'blank slate,' but certainly love to see applicants with demonstrated interest.

Stress your programming skills. Also math and team skills are very important to catch attention. Convince them you can work on a team. A lot of firms have their own evaluation process with many test before you really starting interviewing. Your best bet is just to apply to as many places as you can as early as possible and do your best to run their gauntlets. Expect 10% - 20% response/hit rate depending on your qualifications and the competitiveness of the firms you apply to.

Best advice is just to apply to many many many, worked for me.

 

[glaucon]

Thanks a lot engineer. That was really helpful. I'll definitely take your advice. Do you have any suggestions as to what I could possibly do this summer to improve my CV and applications? I'm going to continue trading and get into the black with my profit and brush up on my C for sure.

 

[engineer00]

You just finished your second year so you have 2 more years left correct? I am from the US btw. So you still have next summer then for an internship then right? I don't know much about internships in trading, but I know getting a good starting trading gig is hard enough, I imagine trading internships are few and far between.

As for this summer, I would just make sure you keep learning your stuff so you can ace any exams for trading firms they give you. Also, do research on all the firms you'd like to apply to, and prioritize a list of the ones you'll apply to when you're ready to graduate. Try to network on LinkedIN or through your school. That takes time so starting early is good; don't conduct your job search in a shell. Make a good cover letter template so you can apply to as many as possible. I know this has nothing to do with your CV but it's what will get you a job. I wouldn't bother with brushing up on C. More applications and better applications are the actual physical actions that will get you in the door, remember that. FYI, I applied to about 30, and was invited to interview with 5, had human interviews with 3.

 

[Victor90]

How about taking some exams over the summer? CMT, SII or CFA?

 

[glaucon]

In the UK most undergraduate degrees are 3 year courses. I graduate in 2009. Incidentally, does anyone know why so many graduate schemes for the top-tier banks have Sales, Trading and Research as opposed to just Trading or Sales or Research? Is there a requirement for an institutional trader to have all these skills to be successful within the industry nowadays or is it more to do with greater flexibility later on as to which area they'd like to settle in within the firm after the graduate training finishes?

The SII certainly looks appealing. I already have the Investment Management Certificate qualification which I completed last year. Regrettably, this was during the time when I was undecided as to which career path I wanted to follow so I question the value-added the IMC qualification is going to have to the CV of a prospective trader. What do you think? Does it show a lack of focus to the HR rep reading my CV? Nonetheless, I'll research the SII qualification a little more.

 

[rawrschach]

Because if you get an internship you will rotate through all the desks till they find where you fit best.

HR don't know much about anything and it will probably work in your favour in their view.