graduate career advice - dilemma - please help

[mpat89]

Hi,

I am about to graduate with a BSc from a good university with a good subject (grade remains to be seen but I'm hoping 2.1). I don't have a graduate job lined up but I know my interest lies within the financial markets.

Over the last 18 months I've grown a very strong interest in the markets, I'm currently at the stage where I've found a strategy that I'm very comfortable with and I believe will give me strong results. Due to uni commitments I haven't been able to trade it during the day and have only seen the results in manual backtesting thus far so obviously I will trade demo or with small amounts of money for a month or two before investing any substantial amount.

Since I don't currently have a job I will have the time to test my strategy before any job comes my way, but, if the strategy turns out to be as good as I expect it to be I would like to trade it full time as I believe my potential earnings in the first few years will be quite a few times larger than any graduate job will offer me. Obviously this all depends on the viability of my trading method however I believe I have been pretty realistic (if not pessimistic) during my backtesting and the results do look promising. I will look for jobs alongside my trading so if it turns out I have major flaws in my plan that I have not foreseen, I will have already been on the job hunt for a while and can hopefully commence a career in a grad job.

The problem I am having is, assuming my strategy is as successful as I am currently led to believe, whether I should pursue trading or look for full time employment. With trading I am my own boss and have a lot of flexibility, my working hours would only be 9 hours a day, 4 days a week. I see trading as my passion and the only area of work I can see myself getting up early in the morning for. Being my own boss is important to me as I have learnt from that I gain no satisfaction or motivation from being just another employee.

However, a point my family and friends have raised as a serious concern is that if I do this I will not have much interaction with the outside world and will not be developing the skills that most graduates will begin to develop post degree. I agree that this is probably true but then I wonder, if I am following what I am passionate about then this is not a problem as I would not be intending to join a firm and so would not require such skills. So what they are regarding as a major issue is something that I believe would have no affect given what I would be doing. It would only be a problem if later down the line it turned out I could no longer trade for whatever reason and need to go into a full time job.

I could do with all the advice I can get, should I look to keep trading as something I do on the side? It's all I can see myself doing and the thought of working in some other job at a bank or accountancy/actuary seems almost like failure to me. I don't believe I stand a chance of getting a job in trading at a bank or hedge fund as I'm not Oxbridge and have no past trading internships or contacts. So I'm pretty sure I'd be working in some other field. Are these skills so important for me to develop that I can't pursue what I'm passionate about?

My heart is set on trading but I'm a rational person and open to advice or pointers that people can offer me.

Thanks!

 

[mpat89]

Should also mention I'm looking to do a part time MSc in Maths & Finance at Imperial or a part time financial engineering masters if I can find it at a good uni. This will be regardless of my career situation, mainly to follow my academic interests. Not full time as I'm dying to start doing something other than study.
another note: also begin a part time job next month doing chart analysis as forum moderator for a startup european financial betting company

 

[qq11]

Firstly, an individual that is logical/rational would not need to ask advice from people as they would simply make their own decision based on their own conclusion. Meaning that your viewpoint is from an emotional stance.

Secondly, never assume anything. Everything must be proven with factual evidence before you can state it truly works.

Thirdly, if you care about what your family/friends think then trading is not something for you.

 

[mpat89]

Thanks for your response. I do not believe I am experienced enough to come to an informed conclusion with regards to the importance of working outside and developing skills in the workplace. This is where I call for help from the forums.

I agree with you, I have made no assumptions about the profitability of my strategy in that I will go through the standard testing process of demo etc. In case it turns out I'm living in a dream world for whatever reason I will be sending job applications alongside my testing process.

I will not make a decision based solely on the input of my family and friends but I value their opinion and would definitely take anything they have to say into consideration.

So I suppose what I am really asking is aimed to those that trade from home, how vital do you believe developing skills in big firms or other careers etc is to your general success in life (success being happiness and personal fulfilment etc) - I am sure many of you will have previously worked for other companies before going off to do your own thing, do you think it helped? Do you think there will be any problems for someone who skips this process?

 

[sinimini]

Dude, throw yourself into the trading now while you have the chance, save time and get insight on how tooled up psychologically you are to trade by starting with a micro account. Trading could be what you really want to do, or it could be a fantasy you think you want to be part of, so get trading with real money (small stakes) to find out.

With regards to family and friends, I got most resistance from my parents. My parents were not supportive, and I faced heavy resistance due to them thinking that I was better off in a 'normal' job like a 'normal' person my age. I told then to buzz off, but I have always been good at that, hahah.

In my experience friends will generally be supportive and interested. Anyone who comes across negative all the time about what you want to do is not interested in you developing as a person and is unlikely to be successful themselves. Stop hanging around them, Its not hard.

I did my work experience at a Hedge fund in 2008 and I know what you mean about the Oxbridge types. Its full of them, all speaking 5 languages or something I spent time with a brokerage firm and found I could relate to the people there more, you get all walks of life, for example some have degrees some don't. I did notice that a lot of them appeared to be alcoholics, but they all put in stupidly long hours at the office so that can be forgiven somewhat!

Crack on and have a go.

 

[sebastionay]

Thanks for your response. I do not believe I am experienced enough to come to an informed conclusion with regards to the importance of working outside and developing skills in the workplace. This is where I call for help from the forums.

I agree with you, I have made no assumptions about the profitability of my strategy in that I will go through the standard testing process of demo etc. In case it turns out I'm living in a dream world for whatever reason I will be sending job applications alongside my testing process.

I will not make a decision based solely on the input of my family and friends but I value their opinion and would definitely take anything they have to say into consideration.

So I suppose what I am really asking is aimed to those that trade from home, how vital do you believe developing skills in big firms or other careers etc is to your general success in life (success being happiness and personal fulfilment etc) - I am sure many of you will have previously worked for other companies before going off to do your own thing, do you think it helped? Do you think there will be any problems for someone who skips this process?

I'm in a similar situation to you, I'm graduating in Electrical and Electronic Engineering this summer but not expecting to achieve a 2:1 like yourself, Ive also had similar thoughts running through my head but Ive decided to opt for financial freedom over social experience this time. I can't see myself being paid a wage I would be happy with as an engineer and I find the work a lot more difficult and less interesting than being a trader.

I knew since before entering university that I wanted to have as much control over my life as possible and decided to do a degree in order to raise capital more easily for stock purchases in the future.

Finished my Exams in April and have devoted most of my time since programming various strategies Ive thought of and then back testing them across different historical data sets to give a rough gauge if they would be profitable or not before optimizing them, analysing price action with various indicators to see if I can find any discernable edge wherever possible.

Anyway you get the idea a full systematic approach so that I can be as productive as possible,reduce risk and avoid human limitations such as cognitive biases by making my EA's open the trade on the logical conditions instead of me doing it manually.

Its all taken a lot longer than I wanted it to because I'm not a programmer and Ive had to learn a lot of new skills as well as apply what I've learned in engineering wherever possible to improve the system.

My plan is to slowly and conservatively compound a relatively small account at around 2% daily. The target is not set in stone as I'm only gonna trade when my entry conditions are there and of course this target will need to be changed regularly as account size develops.

I think the answer to your question comes entirely down to your personality, taking a myers briggs test if you haven't already will probably help you clarify what you want.

It takes a rare type of person to turn down a graduate salary to trade isolated on his own in a market where the overwhelming majority of people blow their accounts.

Regards Seb.

 

[mpat89]

Dude, throw yourself into the trading now while you have the chance, save time and get insight on how tooled up psychologically you are to trade by starting with a micro account. Trading could be what you really want to do, or it could be a fantasy you think you want to be part of, so get trading with real money (small stakes) to find out.

Have already spent a few Uni holidays trading on my SB account 9-5ish which ended up being a fantastic experience and does lead me to believe I am suited to trading. I feel that I will face a psychological barrier once I go from this account size to the account size I plan to use to make my living... I'll stage the deposits in so that they come in gradually and only if results are consistently profitable over a period of time. Guess I'll just have to give it a go, will have a fair idea of if its worth pursuing within 3-6 months and if not I shall cut my losses and try and find a grad job I suppose. Anyways thanks for your input. I will just any family comments on the chin I suppose.

 

[mpat89]

I'm in a similar situation to you, I'm graduating in Electrical and Electronic Engineering this summer but not expecting to achieve a 2:1 like yourself, Ive also had similar thoughts running through my head but Ive decided to opt for financial freedom over social experience this time. I can't see myself being paid a wage I would be happy with as an engineer and I find the work a lot more difficult and less interesting than being a trader.

I knew since before entering university that I wanted to have as much control over my life as possible and decided to do a degree in order to raise capital more easily for stock purchases in the future.

Finished my Exams in April and have devoted most of my time since programming various strategies Ive thought of and then back testing them across different historical data sets to give a rough gauge if they would be profitable or not before optimizing them, analysing price action with various indicators to see if I can find any discernable edge wherever possible.

Anyway you get the idea a full systematic approach so that I can be as productive as possible,reduce risk and avoid human limitations such as cognitive biases by making my EA's open the trade on the logical conditions instead of me doing it manually.

Its all taken a lot longer than I wanted it to because I'm not a programmer and Ive had to learn a lot of new skills as well as apply what I've learned in engineering wherever possible to improve the system.

My plan is to slowly and conservatively compound a relatively small account at around 2% daily. The target is not set in stone as I'm only gonna trade when my entry conditions are there and of course this target will need to be changed regularly as account size develops.

I think the answer to your question comes entirely down to your personality, taking a myers briggs test if you haven't already will probably help you clarify what you want.

It takes a rare type of person to turn down a graduate salary to trade isolated on his own in a market where the overwhelming majority of people blow their accounts.

Regards Seb.

You're lucky to have finished in April, I'm still waiting to finish exams. Maybe since we are at similar stages it may be beneficial for us to keep in touch over the next few months?
Btw what do you mean by compound an account at around 2% daily? Is 2% your expected profit per day?

Just did one of those personality tests, ideal careers are analyst, science, engineering. To be honest I'd rather do trading and take the risk of not earning as much as I would in a graduate job than take one straight away. I want to at least say I've tried.

I also notice you said you're doing this for financial freedom, I sometimes wonder if that's a very good reason to choose to get into it...? It's certainly a benefit of being good at it but I hope it's not your main attraction!

 

[sebastionay]

Sure I will PM you some contact details.

2% is a general target for the small account days however as I mentioned before I know I wont be able to trade everyday. I intend to risk 0.5-1% off account balance per trade normally.

My systems are not achieving 2% daily by themselves automatically so I'm not inclined to just say that I expect 2% daily.

Financial freedom is a main attraction, But freedom in general I would rather be in full control of what I'm doing than completely lock myself in to the full time guaranteed stable income with more social interaction.

I also like having as much situational awareness as possible characteristic of my personality type ENTJ which keeps me happy doing the analysis.

Happy trading! Seb.

 

[GCC]

It is a good thing to pursue your dream as early as possible. However, I do think that in your early days after uni you better diversify your life in the society. Working experience in your early life will give you a good idea of what you really want and who you really want to be.

Moreover, it is not a good idea to have no backup plan in your life. Suppose your trading doesn't go well, and you are forced to find a job. What will you tell the employer when asked about your hiatus after graduation? Would you tell him, "well, I spend a full year gambling all my savings away?"

Heed the words of the famour trader Larry Williams: Trading is a marathon! It's good to start young, but dreaming about making a living on your limited capital in a few years is hard, unless you luckily encounter a giant trending market. It is better to save money, and trade with your spare money. You can't have that without getting a job first.

 

[mpat89]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

With the preparation I've done and past trading experiences I feel that if I am not trading profitably within 6 months then I should no longer pursue this path as a full time career for the time being. I am giving myself a 6 month cut off point so I do not spend too much time attempting to make this work and end up having to tell the employer I tried and failed (well better 6 months than a year anyway). I will be applying for graduate jobs as soon as I finish my exams in a week or two in the hope that if my trading fails I will have an offer by then that I can fall back on.

At present I'm lucky enough to have enough capital to do this thanks to a business I used to run and also stock trading in the last 2 years. I have a part time job (which will not affect my trading) that I am due to start next month, income from this will be enough to cover costs meaning I will be able to live and leave my current capital intact (less trading losses) until I want to buy a house or something like that at which point the part time job would be no where near enough.

So I suppose the only argument that I haven't got an answer to is the 'Working experience in your early life will give you a good idea of what you really want and who you really want to be.' I suppose I agree with this but I really feel like this will be my only opportunity to do this as once I get a job I will get used to the security and start having more financial responsibilities so wouldn't be able to give it up to move into trading, at the moment I have no responsibilities so it seems like the perfect time. My worry is that in all the job interviews I've been to for roles that my peers would be very happy to be doing, I've been left feeling particularly unexcited about the work and do worry that I won't be motivated enough to thrive in a career that isn't trading.
Do you still think I should look to get a job before attempting to trade full time?

 

[GCC]

With the preparation I've done and past trading experiences I feel that if I am not trading profitably within 6 months then I should no longer pursue this path as a full time career for the time being. I am giving myself a 6 month cut off point so I do not spend too much time attempting to make this work and end up having to tell the employer I tried and failed (well better 6 months than a year anyway). I will be applying for graduate jobs as soon as I finish my exams in a week or two in the hope that if my trading fails I will have an offer by then that I can fall back on.

My feeling is that 6 months is too short to give oneself to prove anything. Three years, with real money risked, is the minimum, in my opinion, because you have experience all sorts of markets as well as emotional highs and lows before becoming a full time trader.

At present I'm lucky enough to have enough capital to do this thanks to a business I used to run and also stock trading in the last 2 years. I have a part time job (which will not affect my trading) that I am due to start next month, income from this will be enough to cover costs meaning I will be able to live and leave my current capital intact (less trading losses) until I want to buy a house or something like that at which point the part time job would be no where near enough.

I still think it is a good idea that you can take kind of a "gap year" for trading. After all, it is a good experience to give you an idea what it is like to become a trader. However, it is better to take a negative mindset on your expected return, i.e. only trade with money that you are prepared to lose ALL of them. My experience is that all traders, now matter how great they become later, in the beginning did blow their account at least once, and that includes myself. And even if that does not happen, most of the time you just see your account balance seesawing: getting profit and giving back, and going nowhere in the end. This is something you have to endure during your life as a trader. This is something frustrating you really have to consider.

If you allow me to put it this way, most of the people want to become traders, but they don't want to trade. It means: they only see the flexible hours, absense of boss, big money, etc, but they do not see the long lonely quest to study the market and do research, and to endure long months of non-profiting. If you really want to become a trader, this is something you really have to experience and decide for yourself. And you can't do it in just 6 months. As I said, 3 years is the minimum.

So I suppose the only argument that I haven't got an answer to is the 'Working experience in your early life will give you a good idea of what you really want and who you really want to be.' I suppose I agree with this but I really feel like this will be my only opportunity to do this as once I get a job I will get used to the security and start having more financial responsibilities so wouldn't be able to give it up to move into trading, at the moment I have no responsibilities so it seems like the perfect time. My worry is that in all the job interviews I've been to for roles that my peers would be very happy to be doing, I've been left feeling particularly unexcited about the work and do worry that I won't be motivated enough to thrive in a career that isn't trading.

This is exactly my point. Expose yourself to other opportunities and see if you still want to return to trading. Maybe you will just find there are something much better than trading itself.

If you are really born to be a trader (so to speak), then no matter how long you have been away, you will always find your way getting back to trading. Conversely, if you find that your life is perfectly fine without trading, then congratulate yourself for not being a trader in the first place. A real passion in life is something that you cannot live without. As I said, most people just want to become traders but not to trade. You have to want to trade to become a good trader.

Do you still think I should look to get a job before attempting to trade full time?

I just don't think being "fulltime" will do any good to trading, as least to beginners. As Larry Williams suggested, beginners should start out as a more positional or swing trader, to trade higher timeframes and hold trades longer. This gives themselves a better bird-eye view and does not require much time. As a matter of fact, some members here are doing well having a fulltime job AND being a part-time swing trader. I think this is the route you should take.

Only after you have mastered longer-term trading (with real money, that is), you should consider being a fulltime trader.

 

[mpat89]

Ok. Thanks for that. These are good comments, I think I will simply have to make the decision in 6 months time, if it turns out trading isn't for me and I wait too long to find that out then what's left of my immediate career prospects would be significantly reduced so I will have to find the right balance.
Thank you all for your comments, I think we can wrap this thread up now!

 

[sinimini]

Listen yeah, stop listening to other people and just do it! (Drunk man sober mind opinion).