Give Up ?

advfntrader

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I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit:cry:
 
I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit:cry:

An easy way to tell if its a gambling habit is this: Decide to take a two week break from trading to clear your head. When you come back sit down for a few hours and work out what your objectives are, what your targets are and what RULES you are going to use to trade with: in otherwords, make a business plan.

If you find out that:

a) you can't survive two weeks without trading or -
b) you can't be bothered to make a proper business plan

Then you are most likely gambling.

If you are not gambling then the question of how long you should stick at it before you give up is a difficult one to follow. I lived the market literally as an obsession for 7 long years before becoming consistent and still have days (and sometimes weeks) which make you wonder whether you've lost what you had and doubt yourself.

This is why a plan is so vital. You should refer to it every single day you sit infront of that screen.
 
Stop. It is a gambling habit and you will lose everything you have and more. There is no difference between financial markets and horses if you are not investing. It will take you 2-3 years to become profitable and even then you will need stringent risk controls to prevent giving it all back. Stop now and it will be a good cut.
 
I've been on holiday for 10 days so that was an enforced break. I'm using ODL at only 50p per point to limit the risk.

my problem has always been I have no set rules. I've tried a lot of systems but all of them have some discretionary element, eg. do X&Y but its up to you about Z. also I am letting losses run and not using a set % stop.

looing back if I'd used a set % stop and let profits run I would have still been in the game !
 
Stop. It is a gambling habit and you will lose everything you have and more. There is no difference between financial markets and horses if you are not investing. It will take you 2-3 years to become profitable and even then you will need stringent risk controls to prevent giving it all back. Stop now and it will be a good cut.

Slightly defeatist i'd say. There's no reason why you can't make it with proper planning, proper testing, excellent discipline and continual evaluation of yourself. That said, this is not easy, i had an awful day yesterday, but after analysing my actions and thoughts, i came to a conclusion which will undoubtedly save me a lot of cash in the future. Don't bury your head in the sand after a bad run and just keep going, stop the cycle and do things differently. Sometimes after the worst of times if you focus your energy into finding a solution, you'll make the best of discoveries!
 
I've been on holiday for 10 days so that was an enforced break. I'm using ODL at only 50p per point to limit the risk.

my problem has always been I have no set rules. I've tried a lot of systems but all of them have some discretionary element, eg. do X&Y but its up to you about Z. also I am letting losses run and not using a set % stop.

looing back if I'd used a set % stop and let profits run I would have still been in the game !

Mate, this is easy to rectify (in theory) - it's called discipline.

Do the following and I promise it will make a BIG difference:

- Limit every single position you take to just 5% risk of your total capital. If you can't take a trade with 5% risk because you don't have the funds then wait until you do have the funds.

- Choose ANY system that has clearly defined entry and exit rules. If there is discretion involved, take the discretion out by enforcing your own rules over the discretionary part. e.g. Lets say your system is this: (bear in mind I just made this up):

On the 5m TF, when price hits the upper or lower bollinger band, wait for the stochastics to cross and then take a position above/below the last candle when they crossed. Put your stop above/below that trigger candle.

The discretionary part might be:

When price has gone 3X risk exit in full OR you can trail your stop above/below each 5m candle or you can cut half into the first s/r level and let half run with the trailing stop as indicated above.

What you need to do in this scenario is PICK ONE and note the results. Once you have results you can work on those results.

Finally, take the setups and TURN THE SCREEN OFF UNTIL YOU NEED TO CHECK BACK.

You will either be stopped out or in profit and able to adjust your stop.

People refuse to do this because they like the excitement of watching their P&L change but you are supposed to be in this business to make money not get excited.

If trading is exciting then there is usually something badly wrong. Most of the good traders seem to treat it like what it is - a job. One guy here who was up £4,000 by 10am yesterday was talking to a colleague and said: "trading is alright, I guess it beats most other jobs" in a rather drab way...

Our biggest trader here used to take a position and LEAVE THE OFFICE. Why? He said himself: so he didn't get spooked out.

Trust me on this one.
 
another thing I have relied on has been stochastics, most of the time they are wrong, or only partly right then WHAM it revereses. I may try trading without these from now on.
 
I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit:cry:

Don’t be discouraged by the fact that you haven’t made a single penny yet. Making money from trading isn’t anywhere nearly as easy as finding money in the street. Besides, you’ve only been trading for half an hour, what did you expect?
 
It is not a gambling problem. If it were you would be risking much more than 50p per trade. This shows you have an inbuilt money management system. (Even if it is only the basis of one). You are only trading with this small amount because you know full well that you are not ready to do this 'professionally'.

You just haven't found what works for you...yet.
How long it takes is not important. Some will get it quicker than others, but that doesn't mean they will go the distance.

A bit more information about how you trade would be nice.

The exit is important of course, but only after you have a good entry. Bit hard to offer other advice as no one knows your thought process.

The one thing you must have though is discipline. Stick to your rules (when you get them) regardless. The stop loss will keep you in the game longer as you have found out yourself. Using the stop loss on profitable trades may have kept you in the game that little bit longer.

Once you have finished 'playing' and have this out of your system, then it will be time to start earning some money.

At the start I said it wasn't a gambling problem. Well, I don't think it is a problem. You lack direction without a plan to stick to. You must have a system. Even going long or short on the flip of a coin. That's a system. Seems to be a better one than you have now. Just don't adjust it by going long on heads for one trade and then deciding to go short on heads the next trade.

I guarantee there will be some people doing that. So by taking a 'system' that is correct 50% of the time, by changing the 'rules' you have now developed a new system that is correct less than 50% of the time!

It is important to find a good plan and stay with it.
 
interesting comments, thanks. as I said I've been looking into pinbars & stochastics crossing near trendlines but tend to get sucked down into lower timeframes - these prove less reliable. the 1 thing I MUST do now is use max 3% of accoutnas a stop.

I'm also thinking of never going lower than a 5 min chart
 
Lots of good advice already given, especially from Trader_Dante.


A few thoughts from me. I think it's a good rule to take a break, at least a day or two, after any big win, or any big beating. Get your head straight again. Also just take random breaks of longer periods (if only to prove that you can live without your "fix").


Stochastics: I don't think they lie, but on their own, they are not enough. It's also a question of how you are using them.

Regards,
M.
--

Every day I don't trade is a day on which I don't win.
It's also a day on which I don't lose.
 
what dante said about the guy 'leaving the office so not to get spooked out' can be contributed to turning my trading around. Look at my journal. Obviously my stakes are TINY but over the last few months ive turned my £400 account to nearly 2k at 5pence per point. Things started going LOTS better when i got a fulltime job and couldn't be at the screen all day!

Dont give up. But keep stakes small so that the worst case scenario wont hurt too much, until you find something that works for YOU.
 
Candles: Interesting - Where do you trade for only 5p per point?

I know that some SB firms allow small stakes for new accounts, but of the 2 I've tried who do, it was at most for a few weeks, not months (i.e. not really long enough). (And I didn't really like to keep opening new accounts. I currently have 4 as it is, and this is quite enough!).

Thanks,
M.
 
well thats my problem then !

"if at 1st you don't suceed try, try again "

Don't risk another penny until you can answer these questions:

1) Why am I trading? Don't just say "to make money" - that is what everyone says and believe me it is not the reason everyone trades!!

- Are you looking for something exciting to drag you away from a mundane working life?

- Are you looking for something to "legitimately" fulfill a gambling instinct? (the wife may get on your case if she knows you are visiting Ladbrokes but she probably won't if you say you are learning to trade/invest)

- Are you looking to prove a point to someone in some way? I know someone that divorced from his wife because he was constantly involved in the markets and had no time for her and so they drifted apart. He then threw himself even deeper into the markets in order to prove to her that it was all worthwhile - that all along he had been trying to make money to provide for them both.

- Are you looking to prove a point to a friend/family member? Perhaps you have failed at things in your life previously and you are trying to prove that you can succeed at something. That you can be successful. And perhaps trading appeals to you because you can make a huge amount of money very quickly and therefore prove that success in an immediately quantifiable way.

- Are you trading to fund a retirement plan?

- Are you trading because you want to earn a consistent income? Take a set wage home each week?

Your objectives will define your style. There is so much on this for free on the web and its worth while searching for and reading. But briefly: if its either of the first two points you may almost certainly be attracted to the lower TFs and start overtrading in order to fulfill your objective of obtaining excitement. If you are looking to prove a point to someone, you may be on any TF but you will no doubt try to take excessive risk in order to get rich quicker. If you are trading to fund a retirement plan you may find yourself on the daily and weekly TFs looking to take conservative risks that offer a good chance of steady growth. If you are trading to earn a consistent income then you may need to go onto the 1hr or lower in order to make money each and every day.

2) What are your targets?

You should have targets and targets must be rewarded. You must have a goal. Too many people think of targets along the lines of: "my target is to earn millions and be the best trader out there". So what happens when you have earnt £5m and you are the best trader out there? Are you going to retire? What are you going to do? Where do you want to be? What do you want to do with your life and how does trading fit into that?

3) How are you going to achieve your targets?

This is your trading plan. You need at the very basic a RISK MANAGEMENT rule that stops you blowing up. You need ENTRY rules and you need EXIT rules.

Write them DOWN and follow them without fail for 1 month regardless of the results. Don't second guess the system because you lose 3 trades in a row. Keep following until you have taken at least 20 trades and then re-evaluate. Where did those trades go after I came out? What do you notice? Does the system work just as well without stochastics? Are your results from inside bars better than pin bars? Do you always seem to get stopped out at the low or the high? Do the trades always continue on in the same way you were positioned after you came out? Maybe your profits are down but your win/loss ratio is high? All of this tells you important things.

If you can't answer these questions, you are NOT READY FOR THIS.

Mate, trading is such hard work.

There is absolutely no such thing as find something simple, follow it and make money.

You always need to work and improve.

This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. I have seen so many people come in to a professional firm, get access to great training (on fundamentals, technicals and reading the market order flow) get the best equipment with the fastest execution and have Q&A sessions, asking whatever they want with proven traders that have made millions upon millions of pounds. And still there are more and more leaving all the time, joining the ranks of those that are unable to make money.
 
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what dante said about the guy 'leaving the office so not to get spooked out' can be contributed to turning my trading around. Look at my journal. Obviously my stakes are TINY but over the last few months ive turned my £400 account to nearly 2k at 5pence per point. Things started going LOTS better when i got a fulltime job and couldn't be at the screen all day!

Dont give up. But keep stakes small so that the worst case scenario wont hurt too much, until you find something that works for YOU.

And in direct contrast to what candles said but backing it up completely: I used to have an almost 90% hit rate and make excellent money consistently when I was working as a journalist and couldn't stare at the screen all day. (see when I first started writing Making Money Trading for my mindset at that time)

Then I became a professional to follow the big bucks and I hit the worst losing streak I have had in two years. I became a victim of the order flow - second guessing myself on every down tick when I was long, exiting too early when I had a good position and should have been running it, entering on the hourly but checking the 5m, panicking every time the Squawk said "10 seconds until X number..." and so on and so forth.

When I joined this firm I honest to God believe I could have given even the big traders in here a run for their money. Right now I can barely give the trainees a run for their money.

Go up a timeframe, take a position with a careful plan and get away from the screen.

You have to trust me.
 
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Very good post Tom. (Can't give you any more reps).

(That was for the post 2 above, but the last one is a good 'un as well.)
 
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