Full time trading versus part time...

[Black Swan]

Well I can live with those figures too MR, kinda hard to quantify anway.

It is impossible to qualify/quantify, I see it best as order rank;

MM,
Mind,





Method.


In answer to your other Q I was just asking the simple question does anyone see a pattern?

 

[DionysusToast]

I actually agree with some of BSDs points ! Huzzah...

Let's face some facts here - anyone that starts out this endeavour by immediately going full time is more than likely living with mommy & daddy.

Once you get over the learning curve, you don't need to commit so much time. At the start, the endeavour will consume a serious amount of time with zero reward. There is no way you could go through the learning curve trading off your own money without another source of income unless you already have a couple of million in the bank or you are a kid and supported by your parents. Obviously, the exception is someone that gets a job in the industry.

So - all this stuff about having to be full time discounts most people on the planet, except a bunch of people who haven't left home yet - and I think the lack of exposure to the real world gives them a distinct disadvantage. The idea of someone taking their first steps trading just going in full time before they learnt a thing is... well it's daft.

I agree that a lot of commitment is required - but that is part of the learning curve, as is consistency.

In terms of trading being a safety belt - this is all about size. You do need to start small but as you gain confidence, you up the size and you need to eventually be getting into size that makes a real difference to you financially - otherwise it's just a game. To most people, pulling in an extra $1k a week will make a real difference to their life. At this point, I can guarantee they are already taking it seriously.

 

[DionysusToast]

The contribution from members *supporting* part time trading comes from either; guys that have very accomodating bosses, or are admitting taking the pi55 out of their work and or boss, or are self employed in other capacities..is there a pattern there?

As a part timer - let me answer....

I spent best part of 2 years massively taking the p1ss. But this was in the search for method, nothing to do with execution.

Now - I don't need to. There is nothing for me to do outside of market hours other than going through my pre-market check list. I am no longer looking for method, I am just executing and journaling.

Perhaps I am the exception - perhaps everyone else takes a week to figure out how to trade and then just gives up their job and starts supporting their family with full time trading.

On the other hand, I do have a task to perform over the next few weeks - that is to review every daily chart for the ES for the past 12 months. This may require some p1ss taking too....

 

[BSD]

Huzzah right back as I agree with your points there too toastie.

Is this turning into a lovefest here or what haha.



Just one addendum, the safety belt in trading I meant in terms of outside income potentially reducing the pyschological pressure and potentially leading one astray from doing what needs to be done because one can always rely on ones salary to make up for ones market follies that one understands to be wrong but commits anyway because one wants action, or whatever.

But the point you make that when you still have a job but your trading starts producing returns that contribute in a meaningful way to your overall financial bottom line leading to taking it seriously enough is obviously pefectly valid too.

 

[redart]

and I think the lack of exposure to the real world gives them a distinct disadvantage.

how so, out of interest?

Personally, I've always treated trading as a way to get a bit of pocket money, but thats more due to the fact that i've never had an opportunity to trade any sort of size because i've always been skint, combined with the niggling belief that there is much more information that must be known before one can truly become truly consistantly profitable, and I will likely never be privy to that information.

I'm trading 'full time' hours at the moment - but im not a 'full time trader' - I just cant find a job! lol.

Funnily enough, my best ever results from trading came a year or so ago when I was working full time. I funded an account with about £400 trading at about 40p per pip, and I had turned that into over 4k within about 6 months, which, for a poorper like me was a most welcome addition to my wages. I believe that this was possible due to the fact that I wasn't as the screen micro-managing every trade and cutting winners so quickly etc...

I've been on and off with trading for years and years and have put in more screentime than I imagine the majority do.
In fact, it is nearly impossible to have put in more time than me of them years! I mean that.

In the last few months my results would suggest that I am making some serious headway - but im pretty much just a TA guy, and Im often wondering when this good run will end.

If I can get a job, ill definitely trade part time along side it as I did before

 

[tomorton]

Interesting that there is confuscation between full-time trading - meaning working on trading full-time - and gaining an income equivalent to full time employment.

One suggests hard work, bringing a deserved reward, which no doubt ought to increase with the effort or time expended. The other stresses the reward, without reference to any particular level of effort at all.

I would love to hear Mark Douglas on this thread.

 

[DionysusToast]

In terms of exposure to the real world....

Life tends to throw you a few reality slaps when you are no longer leeching off your parents.

Of course, anyone living with their parents doesn't think they are leeching off them but they are and the parents don't really mind. Still - after the kids leave and IF the kids actually then start helping the parents financially, especially when they are living off their pensions, they now have more disposable income, better holidays, more freedom. It's probably only when you have kids that you realise how much work they put into you.

For anyone here that is still living with their parents, not really paying their share of the bills & food, I would say that you are still sheltered. We all did it - but living under an umbrella of care sure don't prepare you for what the markets will throw at you.

 

[BSD]

Psychology again.

If you're living under the roof of your parents you have much less pressure to perform as you're not worrying about bills or rent.

Doesn't make it impossible, but then you just have to work much harder at coming up with the necessary discpline and at taking your venture seriously enough to make it succeed than those out in the cold all alone who have learned how to make ends meet by themselves, how to set objectives and not be able to afford to not achieve them.

 

[redart]

Psychology again.

If you're living under the roof of your parents you have much less pressure to perform as you're not worrying about bills or rent.
Doesn't make it impossible, but...

that's an advantage, isn't it?

 

[BSD]

Depends on the person I'd say and on how disciplined they are.

Richard Dennis started out living at home, but he is such an extraordinary person in every regard that it's hard to compare him with your usual punter at home.

Will your normal kid still living at home really do what needs to be done, or go off in a huff after a losing streak, wreaking havoc with their accounts because they're taking losses personally, start revenge trading, doubling up, averaging losers, etc etc ?

Kids still living at home can afford that because they won't end up homeless if they go against their rules.

Of course that's no guarantee that those having to make ends meet themselves won't also go breaking rules tho obviously.

 

[trader_dante]

It's easier, in my opinion, for a new trader to make a living trading part time than it is to do it full time.

You just have to use your time constructively.

I appreciate that most people won't agree with this but it is based on experience.

 

[new_trader]

I think what Swan mainly means isn't necessarily part time or not...

but complete and total commitment to getting it to work. Am I getting that right BS ?

If you have a good salary etc will you really be disciplined enough to always do what needs to be done, or will you get negligent because you don't really need the money.

It's like someone who inherits money, for them it's all a game until the money runs out right.

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but you definitely need total commitment and discipline.

In a way trading with a safety belt (salary, inheritance etc) is a bit like the difference between paper trading or going live, the psychological pressure is different, and psychology is imo 90% of trading success.
I wouldn't say starting out part time is impossible, but it can definitely only work if you take it just as seriously as if you were trading for a living, and most won't be able to generate that discipline without outside pressure like a boss telling them what to do or inside pressure like having to pay bills from your trading.

After all most don't have the discpline either to keep their weight down as long as there's no pressing problems cropping up like diabetes etc.

Even then most won't develop the needed discipline to do what needs to be done but keep eating sugar etc, and similarly that's why imo it's hard to take trading seriously as long as you're comfortable financially independent of trading.

Not impossible, but impossible without taking it 100% as seriously as if your bills had to be payed out of your trading account even if you still have a job etc, I think that's what it's all about.

I agree with this 100%.

I would also say that for some strange reason most people associate a ‘job’ with doing something ‘dirty’ or ‘degrading’ and working under a tyrannical boss etc. My ‘job’ isn’t like that at all. I work in a well paid profession, I have a great boss and my colleagues are also my friends and that is what makes it harder to give up. If you are doing dirty work for minimum wage and you hate everything about it then you haven’t got much to looose ( are there 3 O’s or 5?).

I never trade from work so I can’t be accused of abusing my employer and the hours I work means I get a lot of market hours screen time at home, so much time that it makes no difference to say that I am a full-time trader with a part time job or vice versa.

 

[Hilarymannah]

Here's something to keep in mind, for all you dreamers out there !

http://www.motivation-for-dreamers.com/burning-your-bridges.html

 

[meanreversion]

It's probably only when you have kids that you realise how much work they put into you.

I think this is why they invented manners. My 2yr old and 3yr old are continually ordering things from me, be it water, or chocolate or tissues. It's only by forcing them to say please and thank you which stops you from going completely round the twist, otherwise you feel like you're paying for the privilege to be a slave.

 

[DionysusToast]

I think this is why they invented manners. My 2yr old and 3yr old are continually ordering things from me, be it water, or chocolate or tissues. It's only by forcing them to say please and thank you which stops you from going completely round the twist, otherwise you feel like you're paying for the privilege to be a slave.

Too right - I'm the same - my 8 year old still occasionally tells me instead of asks but in the main, he is very well mannered. When he puts a foot wrong in this respect, he is told and he will apologise.

I despair when I see spoilt, cheeky kids running around - especially the expat brats you get out here. Cheeky, rude little spoilt brats with zero manners. I hate to think what their kids will be like.

Mind you - could be worse - could be in the UK where you can't punish your own kids.

 

[BSD]

I would also say that for some strange reason most people associate a ‘job’ with doing something ‘dirty’ or ‘degrading’ and working under a tyrannical boss etc. My ‘job’ isn’t like that at all. I work in a well paid profession, I have a great boss and my colleagues are also my friends and that is what makes it harder to give up. If you are doing dirty work for minimum wage and you hate everything about it then you haven’t got much to looose ( are there 3 O’s or 5?).

I never trade from work so I can’t be accused of abusing my employer and the hours I work means I get a lot of market hours screen time at home, so much time that it makes no difference to say that I am a full-time trader with a part time job or vice versa.

Yup makes sense if one is one of the lucky ones to have a job they enjoy, I mean they do exist after all ;-)

In a similar vein funnily enough quite a lot of people we know have one partner with a job bringing in a steady salary covering the basics, while the other one is the risk taker striking out as an entrepreneur and bringing in the extras.

So do it like that, or have a job you enjoy providing the security, while using trading as your vehicle for providing the potential for wealth, and if one takes ones trading 100% seriously, then sure, that ought to work too as long as the commitment and complete discipline are there.

Mr & Toast, kids wise we played it safe, we "only" have a cat.

 

[Black Swan]

Mind you - could be worse - could be in the UK where you can't punish your own kids.

Eh? You want to punch women and hit kids...?

 

[meanreversion]

Eh? You want to punch women and hit kids...?

The issue being .. ?

 

[DionysusToast]

Eh? You want to punch women and hit kids...?

Most people over 30 will remember getting a slap or two off their mom/dad when they got out of line as kids.

This has been going on for hundreds of generations with no ill effects, in the UK, this is now illegal...

What's the result of this? More polite, well behaved kids? Or ill mannered little turds running around knowing the worse they will get is a shouting at?

I got smacked plenty as a kid, most of my friends did. My dad got hit, his dad got hit and so on and so forth.

I gave my son a smacked ass on one occasion - after he walked off in the hustle & bustle of us checking into a hotel. He walked into the garden, to the cliff edge, down the cliff steps to the beach. That was 4 years ago. Now the mention of a smacked ass is enough to keep him in line.

Of course - any liberals reading this will be aghast. Then again, it's liberals that are ruining the UK, so I couldn't really care less.

As for hitting women. Most women like a good spanking when being taken from behind, who am I to not satisfy their needs?

 

[meanreversion]

Precisely. If you're doing a fat bird from behind, her stomach hangs down and suddenly she looks thinner.