Free will, the market, and our robot overlords

VielGeld

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Time for a bit of fun philosophizing. I've been thinking about this for a couple weeks now.

Atoms make molecules, which make cells, which make living, sentient beings. It could be said that the relationship between sentience and the hardware underlying it (humans/neurons and A.I./circuits) is basically one of a feedback loop (the circuits/neurons feed the sentience, which wonders about the source, etc.).

I saw an article a couple weeks ago mentioning that psychology is basically about trends and tendencies since it's a social science (as opposed to a hard science). In psychology, one looks for probabilities of behaviours. Maybe X event triggered Y symptom within the victim, and must then be put through Z sequence to be treated. It's not that linear, but it's generally how psychologists work.

Sound familiar?

This got me thinking. If people's behaviours are based on psychological factors, then one can readily ask the following question: "does the market feel and/or does it reason?"

Pushing this question further, we can ask ourselves: "does the market possess free will?"

In effect, the "random" price movement exhibited by the market could easily be attributed to a free-thinking entity. If one thinks of the market as an entity with morals, reluctances, and pathologies similar to a human being, then one can also conclude that these are reflected in price movements.

Is it then possible that the "Holy Grail" of price prediction is based not on any so-called indicator, but rather simply on a basic, psychological understanding of Mr. Market? Price really can go anywhere, based on the free-will concept, but, at the same time, it won't, because humans are delimited by their own constitution.

The market is eminently predictable. You need simply regard price as a movement of will, of emotion and psychology. Of reluctance and of hope. Watch its direction, watch where it is reluctant to pierce through. Understand the market, and you are as God himself for you control the very nourishment of the planet.

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When the Singularity is to happen, my very first thought is that the robots would wish to control the market. What other entity so very comprises the very essence of human endeavour as the market does? If the market's purpose is to be an efficient allocator of resources, then controlling this source is to control humanity. The market is the brain of our society. It decides where resources go, and in which quantity. Perhaps it overshoots itself sometimes when some elements of its constitution think it in their benefit to do so. But overall, it only wishes the betterment of mankind because its composition is mankind itself.

Forget the politicians, the marketers of our society. They only wish they could control the mass underlying hardware that makes up the planet. While individual neurons are imperfect in their execution, the whole manages a transcendence of will only achievable by mass computation on the level that humans have managed today. I would be eminently surprised that we would not create a singular entity in its own will through either the circuit-board or the market since that is the way of thing.

Atoms-molecules-cells-biological beings-sentience ... That is the way of things. What comes next? A.I. or the market creating its own interminable feedback loop bringing about a higher level of being? It's a race against time.

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What I mean to say is... To understand the market one should understand not necessarily oneself, but rather the sublimation of oneself into the mass of similar entities. This "market" entity is itself composed of a higher ideal, a "free will" if you will. Price can indeed go anywhere it wants because free will dictates such movement. However, it won't because the individual neurons (buyers and sellers) won't allow it, or can only allow it to go as far as they think it within its possibility to go.

Anyway, discuss. I'm hella drunk, lol, if that weren't apparent. It's been on my mind for a good while now, though. I think it's worth discussing.
 
Oh lawd, what did I write? I'll concede it was a pain to write straight while that drunk. :LOL:

*Ahem*

Erm... Some revision and clarification might be worth it. I think there's something here if one thinks of the market as the lifeblood of the planet and sees price not just as a result of buyer/seller interaction, but also the "will of the people". So large price movements indicate a unified will, but small moves are everyday decisions/arguments.

... More on that later...

Perhaps you should read some of the work of David Hume........

and then get really bombed.

I managed to read half of Kant's Critique before I had to put it down. Does that count?
 
I managed to read half of Kant's Critique before I had to put it down. Does that count?

Nope. Everybody knows Kant is unreadable. Hume actually makes some sense. That's the difference between British and German/Austrian philosophers.
 
Time for a bit of fun philosophizing. I've been thinking about this for a couple weeks now.


Always a pleasure to watch a HERD-member try to break out of the HERD and become an individual. :):)

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>>>> "does the market feel and/or does it reason?"

"does the market possess free will?" <<<<<

Herd-members don't reason, they operate as one and only react. - such reactions are what is known as PRICE. :)

-----------------------------------


>>>>> What I mean to say is... To understand the market one should understand not necessarily oneself, but rather the sublimation of oneself into the mass of similar entities. <<<<<<


Correct, that be the HERD. They can be observed on the Serengeti Plains in Africa and on the Financial Plains stateside especially at EliteTrader and T2W.
:):):)

-------------------

At EliteTrader.com HERD members prance and dance as they play video games and all the while the lions and leopards (the sponsors) are licking their chops as to which one(s) is/are lunch or dinner.

Behold an EliteTrader member dance and prance oblivious to the dangers of the real survivors, the hunters aka predators aka sponsors and vendors :):)


Wildebeest Dance - Twist n Shout - YouTube
 
erm, old news...

Watch limitless, there is already a formula lol

S.

Lol, good movie. A bit pretentious and much concession to entertainment over substance, but fun stuff.

Nope. Everybody knows Kant is unreadable. Hume actually makes some sense. That's the difference between British and German/Austrian philosophers.

Hume it is, then.

Always a pleasure to watch a HERD-member try to break out of the HERD and become an individual. :):)

Uh-oh. I better pack up before the black van pulls up in front of my house.
 
......
This got me thinking. If people's behaviours are based on psychological factors, then one can readily ask the following question: "does the market feel and/or does it reason?"
Pushing this question further, we can ask ourselves: "does the market possess free will?"
No. The market is pushed about by who ever has the most dollars. It more closely resembles a hoare. Even a hoare can select her customers, the market does not.

.
When the Singularity is to happen, my very first thought is that the robots would wish to control the market.
It is utterly impossible for mankind to invent something more intelligent than himself. This sort of jibber has being going on for centuries. It amazes me that every generation thinks they're smarter then the previous and that sooner or later we are going to invent higher intelligence ect. and ect.

....... .... But overall, it only wishes the betterment of mankind because its composition is mankind itself.
Unadulterated greed is going to be for the betterment of mankind?
The market does not think. It is stupid.
Eg. How could the banks in Australia in a ten year period be valued four times more? Are they really four times bigger? I doubt it. And then in the space of two years be worth one third and now double that. That is not intelligence!
The day could come, that if the market is not strictly regulated, the maddeness of the last 15 years could result in outright violence.
Have a look at the London riots, imagine what would happen if they had a cause.
No amount of electronic wizardry is going to keep them calm and happy.
.
Forget the politicians, the marketers of our society. They only wish they could control the mass underlying hardware that makes up the planet. While individual neurons are imperfect in their execution, the whole manages a transcendence of will only achievable by mass computation on the level that humans have managed today. I would be eminently surprised that we would not create a singular entity in its own will through either the circuit-board or the market since that is the way of thing.
No....Now that you're sober.....You really can't believe this.
Who ever controls the electronic circuits will control the uncontrollable mass of mankind.
Electronics cannot and will never understand emotion. For good or for bad, people will express their emotions even with violence if they are suppressed enough.
 
Many a true word is said under " the influence " of alchohol or humour.
Your truer self was exposed for a brief period imho VG
For instance your reference to Mr. Market !
Many would have put the market into the female gender

What the psychos would make of that I can only guess but all our impressions of others are gained from their words and actions.

More of an observation definately NOT criticism.
 
No. The market is pushed about by who ever has the most dollars. It more closely resembles a hoare. Even a hoare can select her customers, the market does not.

They do it for a reason, though.

My overall point was that individual actions can be random since there are too many, but taken as a whole it can eminently predictable.

It is utterly impossible for mankind to invent something more intelligent than himself. This sort of jibber has being going on for centuries. It amazes me that every generation thinks they're smarter then the previous and that sooner or later we are going to invent higher intelligence ect. and ect.

Impossible? I've heard that before...

It's very, very much possible, dude. I can link you to a couple studies and experiments going on right now that demonstrate the kind of progress we've been capable of.

Unadulterated greed is going to be for the betterment of mankind?
The market does not think. It is stupid.
Eg. How could the banks in Australia in a ten year period be valued four times more? Are they really four times bigger? I doubt it. And then in the space of two years be worth one third and now double that. That is not intelligence!
The day could come, that if the market is not strictly regulated, the maddeness of the last 15 years could result in outright violence.
Have a look at the London riots, imagine what would happen if they had a cause.
No amount of electronic wizardry is going to keep them calm and happy.

One of the tenets of the market is that anything can happen. Its one function is to allocate capital (the system's lifeblood) to those most deserving of it (proponents of Efficient Markets). Money can make people become irrational, though, which is why the system is not perfect.

But overall, those who generally are deserving of the money get it (the value-adders of our society: entrepreneurs, workers, etc.).

No....Now that you're sober.....You really can't believe this.
Who ever controls the electronic circuits will control the uncontrollable mass of mankind.
Electronics cannot and will never understand emotion. For good or for bad, people will express their emotions even with violence if they are suppressed enough.

Lol, reading it again it's a bit grandiose. :LOL:

But if you think about it, how does consciousness come about? Neurons on their own don't have the capacity to think, but if you link them up then something else emerges. They can store memories, data, etc. through the inter-connectedness of neural webs. Part of the data-retrieving process has a lot to do with "correlations" between data sets (so the more neuronal connections you have, the better memory/data processing you have).

So I'm just wondering if the market can give rise to something else. Fundamentally it has to do with "what sort of consciousness can emerge from sentient circuits?".

Take it with a grain of salt, though. I treat it as a fun thought experiment and not much more. :cool:

Many a true word is said under " the influence " of alchohol or humour.
Your truer self was exposed for a brief period imho VG
For instance your reference to Mr. Market !
Many would have put the market into the female gender

What the psychos would make of that I can only guess but all our impressions of others are gained from their words and actions.

More of an observation definately NOT criticism.

Really? I've always seen it referred to as "Mr. Market". I've seen plenty of "the market is my mistress", but not one "Mrs. Market". I use both, but it's really "the market".

You might be digging too deep. ;)
 
It's very, very much possible, dude. I can link you to a couple studies and experiments going on right now that demonstrate the kind of progress we've been capable of.

I don't think it will be achieved. I also have Kurt Godel on my side for this one too.
 
^ Funny you should mention Gödel. I've been fairly influenced by Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (which anyone and everyone should read!), where he argues that disparate elements can form a cohesive whole.

Anyway, I disagree that the outcome of the incompleteness theorems directly implies that intelligence cannot be expanded beyond our own capacity.

First off, there is nothing to say that the human mind is finite. For example, you can simply increase neuron density and number for higher computational capacity. Now, if you were to argue that the structure of intelligence cannot be upgraded, I might agree, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved or replicated in different ways. This could lead to other breakthroughs which lead to other discoveries, etc.

For example, if you view the market as functioning, biological body, then you effectively replicated it with a simple buy/sell system. Its decision process is also not unlike binary (1/0 = buy/sell?). So what's to say it can't take on a life of its own?

But anyway, Kurt's theorems are for Turing machines which have very set decision procedures, and not probability-based decisions that free will implies. You also have to consider that humans don't purely reason, but also act based on emotions.

I, for one, cannot believe our robot overlords will never come into existence (though I really think we'll fuse with them rather than let them rule us... It's only logical. :LOL:).
 
I have heard it said that AI is about as intelligent as an ant.
They should tell the politicians and give them an upgrade soonest.

:)
 
Anyway, I disagree that the outcome of the incompleteness theorems directly implies that intelligence cannot be expanded beyond our own capacity.

I think Godel's main point is that a 'leap' is required to understand the concept of incompleteness within any axiomatic system regardless of the system's creator and it is not as literal to be purely human. This is a primary driver behind him still believing in the existence of God. He even went on to derive a form of the Ontological Argument to further reinforce his views.

I don't believe in God but I do think the simplicity of Godel's work indicates something important about consciousness.
 
what the fck?!

get some sleep, get your FT out in the morning and get back to work.

Also, "drugs are baaad...mmmkay?".
 
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