Dynamic Trader methodology (Robert Miner)

[HornedGod]

Dynamic Trader methodology

I have recently purchased and read the 'Dynamic Trading' book written by Robert Miner. His approach to trading is one that seems to gell quite nicely with the way I now view the market.

There have been generally positive comments on the web about the trading course and software that are also available. One such comment is here.

As well as the trading methodology, I also found the sample trading plans in the book to be particularly helpful. The sample layouts for how to do a trade journal are also especially good; worksheets for trade setup and entry, trade management, and trade critique of a closed trade.

I was wondering whether any T2W members have purchased the course and software.

1/ How does the software stand up? Are upgrades provided free forever afterwards?

2/ Is the trading course a step by step approach on how to use the software, or more just general overviews of certain areas, as typified by the free educational reports available on the Dynamic Trader's website?

3/ How is the customer service?

Any feedback greatfully appreciated. Thanks!
HG

 

[absmith1]

>Dynamic Trader methodology
I have recently purchased and read the 'Dynamic Trading' book written by Robert Miner. His approach to trading is one that seems to gell quite nicely with the way I now view the market.

I bought the book, read it five times, tried the time projections with a spreadsheet, made some money and reinvested it in the software! The course and software is expensive but is worth every penny.

But be warned, you need to commit a lot of time into studying the course. And then you need to study your charts, it's not a fast, no effort solution to fortunes. It took me two months of evenings to study the course and one month to analyse all FT100 conpanies. After that I spend well less than an hour a night updating the charts.

He is not a rip-off merchant and his method works.

The web site has a lot of extra material not found in the course books.

1/ How does the software stand up? Are upgrades provided free forever afterwards?

Free updates for minor versions, major versions are a fraction of the initial cost of the course/software.

2/ Is the trading course a step by step approach on how to use the software, or more just general overviews of certain areas, as typified by the free educational reports available on the Dynamic Trader's website?

Step-by-step - it's not the just software he teaches to learn, its a whole methology. The software does not tell you when to trade, it's just a set of tools to analyse the market you are looking at.

3/ How is the customer service?

Excellant.

Andrew

 

[absmith1]

Just noticed the date of your post - did you buy the course/software. Would be interested to here from you if you did, as I'd like to talk to someone using the same methodology.

Andrew

 

[ivorm]

Hi Andrew,

I read the book recently and was so interested in the concepts that I bought the software. I'm still in the learning stage, but so far it looks very impressive.

Please private email me, as I'd like to discuss things in more detail.

Regards,

 

[HornedGod]

Thanks for your thoughts Andrew.

I haven't bought the software and course as of yet, but I plan to do so within the next week or two. I've been busy moving from Ireland to the USA the last couple of weeks, so things have been a bit hectic!

In the spare moments that I have had I've been re-reading the book, along with far too many printouts of old educational reports.

I'd be interested in keeping in touch with anyone using the software, along with finding out how it fits in with your trading plan.

 

[browser]

HG,

I am new to this board so I will add my contribution to something I know a little about.

I bought Miner's book 3 years ago. You may be surprised but I never bought his software (one day I might). I set up my own spreadsheet and did all calculations manually. I have other TA software, but you really need one which projects beyond the right hand side of the scale and allows you to add text and such.

I can say that his method does work, but it takes experience to make it work. I use his method as a framework. Although the method would appear to encompass all the elements required, i.e time, price and pattern, there is one very important element missing. That is volume. Money management also is only touched on and the appropriate bet size can make all the difference. That is what I found.

I also think that Miner should read his own book every now and then as he, or someone on his staff, has a disturbing habit of issuing general newsletter updates to unpaid subscribers predicting when markets will reach a top or bottom and reverse trend without issuing the signal which will invalidate the market call since this aspect in my opinion is one of the most valuable aspects of his teaching.

When time, price and pattern coincide that is one powerful support/resistance to watch out for. I also found that the time aspect is the most critical for entry.

I think Miner's work is a great place to start. There are so many gurus out there it's not real. Miner I feel is genuine.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Nice post browser, and welcome to T2W.

 

[HornedGod]

browser,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad to know that it can be made to work! How long did it take you to become comfortable with using it as a methodology?

Did you alter the approach much beyond the introduction of the volume element? I trade the forex markets, which does not have any volume data as such. Could you explain what information the volume gives you in your trade setups and management, to see if it might be possible to substitute it somehow within the forex markets?

You are also correct in the lack of guidance provided in the book concerning money management. Anyone looking to use this or any other methodology would do well to research their own approach to how to handle this vital aspect. For myself, I use a fixed ratio method which I previously discussed in this thread.

browser, do you follow Miner's recommendation to trade 2 lots with trend reversal trades, one lot of which is a short term trade (with a target of where the move is only a correction), with the other having a target in line with the projected end of wave?

Do you trail your trades with the 1 or 3 Day High/Low as described in the book, or do you use another method for trailing stops? I am looking to use Chandelier Stops, but since these are not part of the Dynamic Trading software package, I am going to include them as part of my own data downloader tool.

I also would have to agree that the ability to identify the condition that will invalidate the current trade setup/market call is incredibly valuable, and I too have wondered as its abscene from some of the market reports that I have read.

For the trend reversal (reversal day, etc.) and trend continuation (gann pullback, etc.) setups, have you just stuck with those ones described in the book or have you found any others to be of use?

 

[markjpwill]

Miner - an alternative viewpoint

I have the course. I have the book. I also did subscribe to the newsletters he issues. The major problem I found with his work is that - it just didn't work on the vast majority of occasions. The problem with making statement like "the top is on for the year" and "major turning point" is that Bob Miner presents these as near definates. Of course they are not - nothing is really is it?

Overall I would rate this product as having limited money management sections (but still worthwhile in my opinion), and the software is nice (a bit quirky in some areas). The newsletters though are in my personal opinion not great - and if one has followed then this year you would have lost a lot of money.

To put my review into context, I'm only 6 months or so into my trading a career. I'm certainly not a guru of any sort. At present I trade futures plus UK equities - but I am making very regular money so I feel quite happy. I have read a few books and am lucky enough to have been beta testing a new product being released soon (which has been stunningly profitable for me). For mamney management I use a Monte-Carlo Lot Maximisation approach given to me with with product I'm testing.

 

[browser]

HG and moderator,

Thanks.
HG, To answer briefly the questions you posed:
I would say it took me only 2 months to comfortably start using his methodology to start bagging good winning trades. It then took me another 18 months to develop from there and I am still a student of the markets and even though I am in it for the money you will find you have to pay for the education.

I have a few of my own consistent chart patterns and indicators that I use to give me the strategy I am using without analytical overload which is something to stay away from. There's no point me mentioning my indicators or patterns. Everyone finds their own favourites in time.

I don't trade forex, but I do follow currency trends, i.e I do analyse the currency markets using the same basic approach. The dynamic approach alone has been valuable in this regard. But if I were to trade the forex i would want some volume clues. Go to chartbook.com and you can pull up some currency charts with volume data.

I can't give volume analysis any justice in a few lines, but basically it gives me clues as to when a move is bullish or bearish.
It is the trails that the market leaves behind. Price tells you where the market is at, and volume tells me what the intentions are. A basic example, watch for market reversals on volume spikes. That's only a basic example. There's more to it, but you get the point.

I don't always trade 2 lots as miner recommends. I use fixed-fraction and the bet size varies according to the most recent trades. When I've taken a loss, bet size is reduced for instance. I do have a target in mind though. I found having a logical profit objective i.e wave target for intraday trading especially indespensible otherwise it's easy to get shaken out. That goes for position trading also.

I don't use the 3 day high/low for trailing stops. That's just my way. The chandalier stop I know can be valuable in currency trading (from what I've read not from any experience).

The trend continuation and trend reversal signals that Miner explains are pretty good. I use them as well as a few others.

And when it comes to philosophy here's one I use, which took me a while to learn. Just one word. Ruthless. Which is out of character, but I guess that's why so many fail at this. I try to be ruthless especially with the stops.

 

[MikeMcG]

Does anyone have any more recent experience with Miner's Dynamic Trading method and/or his software package? The information on his web site looks intriguing and his book, now several years old and not the easiest of reads, seems comprehensive. The entire program is relatively expensive and, from earlier comments on this thread, apparently requires a significant commitment of time and effort. Is it worth it? Any thoughts? Thanks for your advice and help.

 

[Jyde]

Does anyone have any more recent experience with Miner's Dynamic Trading method and/or his software package? The information on his web site looks intriguing and his book, now several years old and not the easiest of reads, seems comprehensive. The entire program is relatively expensive and, from earlier comments on this thread, apparently requires a significant commitment of time and effort. Is it worth it? Any thoughts? Thanks for your advice and help.

Having applied the methods teached in his book for little over a year (ending just over a year ago), and also been a subscriber to the daily newsletters for much of that period, I have not myself been able to turn the methods into profitability.
The book does hold a wealth of useful information. It has introductory lessons on Elliot Wave, Gann technics, trading plans,money management, time cycles, ect. It also has a long chapter with practical examples of how to put the methods to use.
One of my complaints is with the style, I have always found it a bit arrogant amd to contain slight inconsistancies in the teachings (ex. you could in the book find a scathing reference people using X-waves just to find them used later on in the newsletters).
Miner himself has an impressive record and is very knowlegable, and I took my own failings to be due to my inexperience, so I kept at it, re-reading the book several times.
Two things decided it for me in the end:
Since early 2004 (I do not recall the exact time), the sentence 'This is not the end of the bear market [...] it will continue well into 2006 or longer' [not verbatim] was present in his newsletter for half a year's time (regarding US indicies). We were, in fact, in a bull market still and would be for a considerable time.
Secondly, on requests, at some point his newletters started to contain the actual monetary figures from the trades made on his advise. It became clear quite fast that this was a money loser. This went on for some months until I stopped subscribing, as my thinking became to be that if the people at DT cannot themselves apply their methods to profitability, what chance do I have.
It might well be that since I stopped subscribing, the trades have become hugely succesful. I will let others comment on that.
There were other, lesser significant reasons than these two.

Another thing that should be made clear is that his methodology stipulate that you will be able to capture long and intermidiate term tops and bottoms with accuracy. Most people will find that this goes against their belief that the trend is your friend. Seing how many tops have been declared falsely in the newsletter, I would tend to agree with the latter.

As for the software, I have limited experience. A friend purchased the software, could not figure out how to use it and enrolled my help. I found it heavy going, non-intuitive and unclear, and my friend ended up returning it at the 30 days trial expiry. We simply decided that we didn't make enough progress on the learning curve in this regard.
I shall be the first to admit that 30 days is not enough to fully judge a complex software package, and I see from this thread that a few others have made good use off it.

I can also mention that whilst studying his methodology, I was in contact with two people using it as well, one fairly new to trading, the other with many years experience. They both came to the same conclutions as I did.

All the above is, naturally, my personal opinion and may reflect on my inability to put the methodology to use. Others will undobtedly have conflicting opinions.
I will suggest, if you are still interested, that you start out by subscribing to his daily newsletters for a while. The are very fairly priced, and even though they do not teach you the basics of the methodology, you will get a good feel as to whether this is for you or not. You will also be able to make judgement as to the profitability of the method.

All the best...
CJ

 

[Chorlton]

Having applied the methods teached in his book for little over a year (ending just over a year ago), and also been a subscriber to the daily newsletters for much of that period, I have not myself been able to turn the methods into profitability.
The book does hold a wealth of useful information. It has introductory lessons on Elliot Wave, Gann technics, trading plans,money management, time cycles, ect. It also has a long chapter with practical examples of how to put the methods to use.
One of my complaints is with the style, I have always found it a bit arrogant amd to contain slight inconsistancies in the teachings (ex. you could in the book find a scathing reference people using X-waves just to find them used later on in the newsletters).
Miner himself has an impressive record and is very knowlegable, and I took my own failings to be due to my inexperience, so I kept at it, re-reading the book several times.
Two things decided it for me in the end:
Since early 2004 (I do not recall the exact time), the sentence 'This is not the end of the bear market [...] it will continue well into 2006 or longer' [not verbatim] was present in his newsletter for half a year's time (regarding US indicies). We were, in fact, in a bull market still and would be for a considerable time.
Secondly, on requests, at some point his newletters started to contain the actual monetary figures from the trades made on his advise. It became clear quite fast that this was a money loser. This went on for some months until I stopped subscribing, as my thinking became to be that if the people at DT cannot themselves apply their methods to profitability, what chance do I have.
It might well be that since I stopped subscribing, the trades have become hugely succesful. I will let others comment on that.
There were other, lesser significant reasons than these two.

Another thing that should be made clear is that his methodology stipulate that you will be able to capture long and intermidiate term tops and bottoms with accuracy. Most people will find that this goes against their belief that the trend is your friend. Seing how many tops have been declared falsely in the newsletter, I would tend to agree with the latter.

As for the software, I have limited experience. A friend purchased the software, could not figure out how to use it and enrolled my help. I found it heavy going, non-intuitive and unclear, and my friend ended up returning it at the 30 days trial expiry. We simply decided that we didn't make enough progress on the learning curve in this regard.
I shall be the first to admit that 30 days is not enough to fully judge a complex software package, and I see from this thread that a few others have made good use off it.

I can also mention that whilst studying his methodology, I was in contact with two people using it as well, one fairly new to trading, the other with many years experience. They both came to the same conclutions as I did.

All the above is, naturally, my personal opinion and may reflect on my inability to put the methodology to use. Others will undobtedly have conflicting opinions.
I will suggest, if you are still interested, that you start out by subscribing to his daily newsletters for a while. The are very fairly priced, and even though they do not teach you the basics of the methodology, you will get a good feel as to whether this is for you or not. You will also be able to make judgement as to the profitability of the method.

All the best...
CJ

Hi CJ,

Can I ask what would be the preferred markets to trade using his technique, or doesn't it matter? The reason I ask is that I am currently trading UK stocks and wonder whether buying his book would be beneficial for me.


Thanks,

Chorlton

 

[Jyde]

Hi CJ,

Can I ask what would be the preferred markets to trade using his technique, or doesn't it matter? The reason I ask is that I am currently trading UK stocks and wonder whether buying his book would be beneficial for me.


Thanks,

Chorlton

Hi Chorlton,

Honestly, I could not tell you as I have never traded stocks myself. I would agree with the liquidity thing, though. I think it would have to be highly liquid stocks as the methodology is mainly based on mass psychology (EW, time cycles, patterns).
His book and newsletter concentrates on futures, mainly S&P, Dow, Gold, Bonds, and some currencies (at least that was how it was when I subscribed).

Incedently, I have just ordered 'The Naked Trader' by Robbie Burns. It is said to contain simple methodology for UK stock trading. Of course, that's the buzz. Whether it hold true I can tell after I have read it, if you are interested. Or perhaps others can commend on that one?

Let me know if I can help any further!

All the best...
CJ

 

[Chorlton]

Hi Chorlton,

Honestly, I could not tell you as I have never traded stocks myself. I would agree with the liquidity thing, though. I think it would have to be highly liquid stocks as the methodology is mainly based on mass psychology (EW, time cycles, patterns).
His book and newsletter concentrates on futures, mainly S&P, Dow, Gold, Bonds, and some currencies (at least that was how it was when I subscribed).

Incedently, I have just ordered 'The Naked Trader' by Robbie Burns. It is said to contain simple methodology for UK stock trading. Of course, that's the buzz. Whether it hold true I can tell after I have read it, if you are interested. Or perhaps others can commend on that one?

Let me know if I can help any further!

All the best...
CJ

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Basically, I've only been investing / trading for about 15mths, and as I have a day job, I've decided to trade stocks, as I can download EOD data at night and make my decisions ready for the next day. Not the best situation but can't think of what else to do!! :|

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the book (once you've read it) either through this bb or by private message.

btw: Not sure whether you've read it but Chick Goslins Day by Day Trading is a great read. Currently half way though it and his "trending" method seems quite good. Not sure whether I will be able to adapt it for stocks but for futures / indices its probably worth looking at.

There's a thread dedicated to this book on here (if you're not already aware)........

regards,

Chorlton

 

[Jyde]

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Basically, I've only been investing / trading for about 15mths, and as I have a day job, I've decided to trade stocks, as I can download EOD data at night and make my decisions ready for the next day. Not the best situation but can't think of what else to do!! :|

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the book (once you've read it) either through this bb or by private message.

btw: Not sure whether you've read it but Chick Goslins Day by Day Trading is a great read. Currently half way though it and his "trending" method seems quite good. Not sure whether I will be able to adapt it for stocks but for futures / indices its probably worth looking at.

There's a thread dedicated to this book on here (if you're not already aware)........

regards,

Chorlton

Thanks for the tip, already have the book and read it a couple of times. I find it to be very similar in style, though a very pleasant read. I would myself prefer Gosling as he is trading with the trend, but as with all things, I think the best thing to do is study as much as you can, find the different parts that suit you and use them to your advangetage. Knowlegde it good, just remember, simplicity is a tool in itself.

All the best...
CJ

 

[jogy]

Hi All
may i please ask all those traders who have been using this methodlogy to inform me and other who may be interested in trading using this style as to how successful (or not) you have been with this form of trading? It has been some time since the last post in this thread, and it would be nice to know how all of u are getting on with trading.

 

[cuchuflito]

Take Miner´s Book, Software and specially the Course: sudy for a year...minimum...(forget about the newsletter except for educational purposes)...
Then practice, and making money in the markets should become second nature....
Provided: youré disciplined!

And of course: read Van Tharps Money Managment works, at least twice...
BINGO!

Anything else,with little effort, is no better than Roulette...

PS by the way: with good Money Managment, even the newsletter makes money...
Take a winning system, give it to 10 people, 9 will probably loose...that´s the mystery and beauty of the Markets.:

 

[eastsider88]

Hi there, i'm new to this forum. I'm currently going through his multimedia course and find it very useful. It does break it down into a steps and is probably alot more consumable than the book (i haven't ready Dynanamic Trading but did get his new book: High Probability Trading).

I don't have the software yet but am very tempted to get it. Since this thread is going on several years, can anyone with experience using the software AND applying Miner's trend recognition and pattern reversal trading methods provide their views on their experience?

 

[longilo]

hi there,
just bought miners new course---- High probability trading-------any one with ideas of how successful this is.