Delusions, desperation and tortured souls

[chump]

You put someone in say a flotation tank for a little while and the effect of no stiimulus brings them out feeling alert and rested and ready for action. Leave them in there too long and they come out talking to a drunken Leprechaun ...there's a Law of Energy for you. Alternatively , they might come out claiming to have seen a couple of guys, one looks like a fat cheeked chap called Buddy and the other lost his razor blades and has a penchant for nicking nappies off clotheslines,sorry can't remember his name but someone wrote a book about him I think.
.
What I am getting at in my own inimitable way is the electrical/chemical makeup of the human body is capable of being manipulated , or altered to give rise to experiences which may to that person appear very real and very rational. This is not proof that same experiences have any basis in reality outside of the altered states. Unfortunately , you don't need a flotation tank to bring about these learned electrical/chemical responses ,it can be done very easily through everyday life experiences and dysfunctional learned responses become a pattern of irrational behaviour.

"Reborn" ..yes now i know why Prince Charles talks to the plants...presumably one of them is Di ?

 

[Crap Buddist]

Brilliant first post.
What a pleasure to read a thread on t2w where there are no posts from anyone receiving Care in the Community.........for those non-UK readers Care in the Community is the phrase used by our government when they emptied our mental hospitals of violent offenders so they could cut costs and sell off the land to developers. You've got to wonder just who is insane sometimes.....

Which reminds me, I've just finished reading a book called Lila by the author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and there's an apposite line in there which made me think of t2w.
The gist of it is that when a set of crazy beliefs are held by one person they are called a delusion; when held by more than one - a cult, when held by many - a religion.
Richard

Good post, and thats an individuals own choice? I suspect. It can be, but bigger self believers believe they can make others believe what the biggest self believer wants them to believe and that, some may argue , is not helping the non believers , believe in themselves ?

And that is not good for helping others fill their present "bit in between" birth and death?

What do I want to believe of & for myself,if anything ?

Now the biggest self believer, why does he worry of individual beliefs ?

 

[nickerson334]

You put someone in say a flotation tank for a little while and the effect of no stiimulus brings them out feeling alert and rested and ready for action. Leave them in there too long and they come out talking to a drunken Leprechaun ...there's a Law of Energy for you. Alternatively , they might come out claiming to have seen a couple of guys, one looks like a fat cheeked chap called Buddy and the other lost his razor blades and has a penchant for nicking nappies off clotheslines,sorry can't remember his name but someone wrote a book about him I think.
.
What I am getting at in my own inimitable way is the electrical/chemical makeup of the human body is capable of being manipulated , or altered to give rise to experiences which may to that person appear very real and very rational. This is not proof that same experiences have any basis in reality outside of the altered states. Unfortunately , you don't need a flotation tank to bring about these learned electrical/chemical responses ,it can be done very easily through everyday life experiences and dysfunctional learned responses become a pattern of irrational behaviour.

"Reborn" ..yes now i know why Prince Charles talks to the plants...presumably one of them is Di ?

Hi Chump,


Yes, truth in that. I went to an evangelical Church for a friends wedding. Mass euphoria is enoucouraged and the 'belief system' is then easier to 'implant'. I also agree with you that religion is used for manipulation/brainwashing of populations.


I respect your opinions 100%.

Science does not have the answers to the most important questions however.

Any honest scientist will own up to knowing nothing about the answers to these questions.

"What is life and how is it created?"
"What is time?"
"How is matter created?"
"How is natural light created?"

Perhaps science will answer these questions in time.


I am not arguing for the existance of 'God'. I think that 'Pascal's Wager' makes sense though.


What you say in your above post about 'electrical/chemical responses' is true.


As regards delusional/narcessistic traders and advisors. You and I have the experience to spot them as well as to monitor/keep in check our own human tendencies.

 

[Crap Buddist]

You put someone in say a flotation tank for a little while and the effect of no stiimulus brings them out feeling alert and rested and ready for action. Leave them in there too long and they come out talking to a drunken Leprechaun ...there's a Law of Energy for you. Alternatively , they might come out claiming to have seen a couple of guys, one looks like a fat cheeked chap called Buddy and the other lost his razor blades and has a penchant for nicking nappies off clotheslines,sorry can't remember his name but someone wrote a book about him I think.
.
What I am getting at in my own inimitable way is the electrical/chemical makeup of the human body is capable of being manipulated , or altered to give rise to experiences which may to that person appear very real and very rational. This is not proof that same experiences have any basis in reality outside of the altered states. Unfortunately , you don't need a flotation tank to bring about these learned electrical/chemical responses ,it can be done very easily through everyday life experiences and dysfunctional learned responses become a pattern of irrational behaviour.

"Reborn" ..yes now i know why Prince Charles talks to the plants...presumably one of them is Di ?

Hmm, this is the bit science needs to prove ? and should we worry of our next form ? should we worry of the form of the path as does Bo Yoder and Forex price paths?

Perhaps when we walk many paths of all forms (life & Price) and experience the experience then we know more of the truth?

As in life and the markets? cycles, circles ,patterns ,behaviour .

I can see a similarity , is it that way?

Discuss.

 

[nickerson334]

Hi Buddist,

I practice Thai Chi which is derived from Taoism.

Many traders practice some form of martial art, as I know from my institutional/banking
friends in London who I've known since school.


I find that it works. It relaxes me and improves my ability.

This is because of a scientific electro-magnetic/chemical force in the brain and body (as Chump says).

I cannot prove that there is a spiritual force at work.

However, it's ironic that the belief in spirituality is what produces the positve electro/chemical reaction in Thai Chi.

So I agree with both Chump and yourself!

I agree that experience can bring a person closer to the truth. This is the point of the original post of the thread.

Learning to spot 'delusional traders and conmen' comes with experience... as in any business.

I think that Buddism is mostly a positive force in the world. Whether it's real or imagined I think it is still a genuine movement for peace and tolerance.

 

[chump]

Pascals wager is the logic of drunken leprechauns

It all hinges on "no loss but everything to gain"....but this does not hold true...historically signing up for the greater deity has produced by way of side effect the greatest body count we have had has a species....now how does that equate to "no loss" ? ...in signing up for that what was the alternative benefit foregone ...come on let's look at this as a trade ...you take the deity trade you can't take something else so what did that "something else" have to offer ?...was it potentially better , more profitable ? ...basically we don't know do we so how can we say there was 'no loss'. ?
Now let's look at "everything to gain" ...what is 'everything' ?...how and where are you going to get this 'everything'...on what terms specifically are you going to get this 'everything' .... I'm a great believer in contracts ...if someone..deity or otherwise is going to offer me potentially 'everything' I want to know exactly what that is then I know whether I'm going to deliver my end of the bargain and whether I'm getting a fair deal.

To misquote Big Al Greenspan ...if I've given the impression I care I must not have made myself clear ...what I care about is not having other people dumping the byproduct of their crap on my doorstep ..if they could keep it on theirown doorstep then I've no issue as any benefit ,or the alternative is theirs and theirs alone. Doesn't sound much like real life to me though.

David, like much in life you can benefit from things which when taken to extremes do not lead to benefit. Your Thai Chi is one. I have done excercises in moderation for years which give me the ability to regulate my behaviour ...very heathy physiologically ,but would it still be if I took it to an extreme where physiological interfered with my ability to distinguish reality from fantasy ?

 

[nickerson334]

Pascals wager is the logic of drunken leprechauns

It all hinges on "no loss but everything to gain"....but this does not hold true...historically signing up for the greater deity has produced by way of side effect the greatest body count we have had has a species....now how does that equate to "no loss" ? ...in signing up for that what was the alternative benefit foregone ...come on let's look at this as a trade ...you take the deity trade you can't take something else so what did that "something else" have to offer ?...was it potentially better , more profitable ? ...basically we don't know do we so how can we say there was 'no loss'. ?
Now let's look at "everything to gain" ...what is 'everything' ?...how and where are you going to get this 'everything'...on what terms specifically are you going to get this 'everything' .... I'm a great believer in contracts ...if someone..deity or otherwise is going to offer me potentially 'everything' I want to know exactly what that is then I know whether I'm going to deliver my end of the bargain and whether I'm getting a fair deal.

To misquote Big Al Greenspan ...if I've given the impression I care I must not have made myself clear ...what I care about is not having other people dumping the byproduct of their crap on my doorstep ..if they could keep it on theirown doorstep then I've no issue as any benefit ,or the alternative is theirs and theirs alone. Doesn't sound much like real life to me though.

---------------------------


Hi Chump, I agree that organised religion is often a historical and current disgrace. I do not participate in anyway.


You are correct in pointing that out.

There's is a difference between someone beleiving in 'spirit' and believing in organized religion.

I appreciate that you think that beleif in 'spirit' is purley an electro-magnetic response in the brain.


We had this conversation after the 7/7 bombings. I do not beleive in organised religion either. I think it is a disgrace.

So I'm with you there.

 

[chump]

In fairness I don't think any buddy ever did me any harm ,if only other idealogical group would follow suit we might all be able to get on with our lives a bit more peacably.

"spirit" ..depends what you mean by "spirit" ... the "spirit" of the above ...a way of behaving towards each other ..I signed up for that a long time ago. "spirit" as in some thing outside ourselves which we should emulate ,or be governed by ..no , I'll stick with the former.

In any case it was nice to be able to have a run of posts where people can state a view , a different view and not see some cretin come along needing to pound it into the ground.
Got to be out now.Catch you again.

 

[nickerson334]

Hi Chump, I mean the former.

I agree with you also that if people could tolerate or even respect each others differences and look for the common ground then the world would be ok.

Unfortunatly 'divide and conquer' is the order of the day.

Back to the thread......... a delusional narcessist will defy reality to the point of self-destruction. Often though they keep up the illusion long enough to gain followers.

As traders it's part of our job to spot such individuals immediatly.

 

[Crap Buddist]

Hi nickerson, re the delusional postings. I think that a lot of the dialouge from some threads are delivered with a very big dose of tongue prodding inside cheek to facilitate humour and exchange of ideas ,albeit in a form of whats fair to say extreme commedy.

On buddhism, not being a practising religious person but i notice many of their ideas thoughts ways make sense or feel right even when you examine or scrutinise the intent of meaning so agree its positive on the whole.

And if its labelled a crutch or the path then it is but what we also have is conscious decisions taken by respectable "heads" of sorts on the planet who sanction mass killing and these people are judge as rational over the " ill" irational person who has peverse habbits ?

I guess if your popular its o.k. if your not liked then its not? The way I look at it it comes or points back to the individuals being free, brave ? enough to express or live to how they actually want to live for themselves and maybe the forcing from an early age or their environment expsoure with installed worry habbits can hold back functioning to a persons best ability.

But there are some very good posts & posters on these boards that put ideas forward that are very interesting , either that or im easily pleased truth is I am .

hmm be easily pleased and be very hard to feel unpleased ? you see that buddhism thing makes sense again doesnt it ?

A part of Crap Buddist is a recognition & reflection of mans struggle to 'Get that way' you know.

Thus all humans are Crap Buddists , on the whole

No offence to any buddhists either, i'm sure they see the positive use of the word 'Crap' .

Maybe its mans goal or experience of many life paths travelled they drop the crap and become buddhists, acceptance, tolerance, love ,compassion and then become ,what ?

cheers.

 

[Splitlink]

One has to be a philosopher to come to grips with ideas such as these. How many of us are prepared to select or reject, after careful consideration, what is a feasible conclusion to be accepted?. Is it good for one's mental health to delve into the world of leprecauns and what have you?

My own outlook on spiritualism is fairly straightforward, Naturally, I do not wish to push it down anyone else's throat!

If one does not believe in God, there is no point in believing in anything else.

If leprecauns, and others, exist, there is no reason to believe that God does not and, therefore

If God exists, then he is the only Spiritual Being worth worrying about.

I believe in God, but those who do not (and it is not my concern if they do or not) should not play around with other spiritual ideas, because those other spirits will only serve to drive one mad, in the end.


Split

 

[nickerson334]

Hi nickerson, re the delusional postings. I think that a lot of the dialouge from some threads are delivered with a very big dose of tongue prodding inside cheek to facilitate humour and exchange of ideas ,albeit in a form of whats fair to say extreme commedy.

On buddhism, not being a practising religious person but i notice many of their ideas thoughts ways make sense or feel right even when you examine or scrutinise the intent of meaning so agree its positive on the whole.

And if its labelled a crutch or the path then it is but what we also have is conscious decisions taken by respectable "heads" of sorts on the planet who sanction mass killing and these people are judge as rational over the " ill" irational person who has peverse habbits ?

I guess if your popular its o.k. if your not liked then its not? The way I look at it it comes or points back to the individuals being free, brave ? enough to express or live to how they actually want to live for themselves and maybe the forcing from an early age or their environment expsoure with installed worry habbits can hold back functioning to a persons best ability.

But there are some very good posts & posters on these boards that put ideas forward that are very interesting , either that or im easily pleased truth is I am .

hmm be easily pleased and be very hard to feel unpleased ? you see that buddhism thing makes sense again doesnt it ?

A part of Crap Buddist is a recognition & reflection of mans struggle to 'Get that way' you know.

Thus all humans are Crap Buddists , on the whole

No offence to any buddhists either, i'm sure they see the positive use of the word 'Crap' .

Maybe its mans goal or experience of many life paths travelled they drop the crap and become buddhists, acceptance, tolerance, love ,compassion and then become ,what ?

cheers.

I think there are advantages to Buddhist thought when trading.

In Market Wizards the psychologist Tharp points out the common character traits of all the very successful traders he interviewed.

Tharp's research into successful traders concludes.


1: Successful traders are at peace with themselves.
2: Successful traders are not 'overly attached' to ego or money. So their trading decisions are not 'emotionalized'.

I am not a practising Bhuddist but I think Zen philosophy is very possibly one way to achieve those 'successful trader' character traits.

I personally use NLP.


I also think those character traits will give an individual the necessary perspective to immediatly spot
the 'delusional narcissist' described in the original post by Glenn.

 

[Glenn]

Seems the thread is developing a side-strand in philosophy which makes interesting reading.
But I think there is a big difference between hard evidence of mental health problems and speculation about the philosophy of delusion. You can be mentally healthy and still susceptable to misleading information leading to delusion. e.g. lies, spin, propoganda etc. You can be stable and still look for an answer to the meaning of life and death for some form of comfort.

Pathological narcissism is an infantile defence against abuse and trauma, usually occurring in early childhood or early adolescence. I can tell you many true stories of people with mental health problems cause by some form of abuse, physical, mental or sexual, in early life.
The body's subconscious defence mechanisms at some point take over the conscious persona and make adjustments to facilitate coping in future. The result is what you see in the symptoms.

Glenn

 

[nickerson334]

Seems the thread is developing a side-strand in philosophy which makes interesting reading.
But I think there is a big difference between hard evidence of mental health problems and speculation about the philosophy of delusion. You can be mentally healthy and still susceptable to misleading information leading to delusion. e.g. lies, spin, propoganda etc. You can be stable and still look for an answer to the meaning of life and death for some form of comfort.

Pathological narcissism is an infantile defence against abuse and trauma, usually occurring in early childhood or early adolescence. I can tell you many true stories of people with mental health problems cause by some form of abuse, physical, mental or sexual, in early life.
The body's subconscious defence mechanisms at some point take over the conscious persona and make adjustments to facilitate coping in future. The result is what you see in the symptoms.

Glenn

HI Glenn,

It is sad. Hopefuly those people will get the help they need.

I think the antidote to 'delusional narcassistic' types is this.

1: Trust your experience.
2: Be open to new ideas but research them in great detail.
3: If your system is in a drawdown be rational and do not go searching for the 'Holy Grail'.

 

[jacinto]

My own outlook on spiritualism is fairly straightforward, Naturally, I do not wish to push it down anyone else's throat!
Split

agree 100%, and that is the way it should be.

j

 

[grantx]

Spitlink,

“If leprechauns…exist, there is no reason to believe that God does not”

Therefore, if God exists, the existence of leprechauns is equally valid?

“If God exists, then he is the only Spiritual Being worth worrying about.” Why so?

“those who do not [believe in God] should not play around with other spiritual ideas”. Therefore, does belief in God allow belief in others? Or is this mutually exclusive? Rejection of one doesn’t necessarily exclude alternatives: “If one does not believe in God, there is no point in believing in anything else.”

Glenn,

“Pathological narcissism is an infantile defence against abuse and trauma [supported by] many true stories”. You present this as fact. It may be true in some cases but problems arise with blind/unquestioned acceptance (similar to religion). This is well-illustrated by the now discredited “regression” methods of US psychiatrists/therapists in detecting possible child abuse.

Unfortunately for psychology, it occasionally suffers from wrong causes, right effect. It doesn’t apply the normal scientific rigour to testing a hypothesis and rejecting it on contradictory evidence, eg someone with a mental problem was abused as a child, another has not been abused as a child (as per the last paragraph).

Grant.

 

[Glenn]

Spitlink,

“If leprechauns…exist, there is no reason to believe that God does not”

Therefore, if God exists, the existence of leprechauns is equally valid?

“If God exists, then he is the only Spiritual Being worth worrying about.” Why so?

“those who do not [believe in God] should not play around with other spiritual ideas”. Therefore, does belief in God allow belief in others? Or is this mutually exclusive? Rejection of one doesn’t necessarily exclude alternatives: “If one does not believe in God, there is no point in believing in anything else.”

Glenn,

“Pathological narcissism is an infantile defence against abuse and trauma [supported by] many true stories”. You present this as fact. It may be true in some cases but problems arise with blind/unquestioned acceptance (similar to religion). This is well-illustrated by the now discredited “regression” methods of US psychiatrists/therapists in detecting possible child abuse.

Unfortunately for psychology, it occasionally suffers from wrong causes, right effect. It doesn’t apply the normal scientific rigour to testing a hypothesis and rejecting it on contradictory evidence, eg someone with a mental problem was abused as a child, another has not been abused as a child (as per the last paragraph).

Grant.

Grant

The first part was a definition of NPD from the profession.
i.e. "Pathological narcissism is ...... early adolescence."

It is true that this is about probabilities not certainties as in most diagnosis. My mention of examples was not meant to be a qualifier but as you say in it was in support of the defintion.

The purpose of the thread was to point out likelihood, not certainty, and to
a. allow people to judge for themselves whether they should put faith in conjecture from characters who present with the symptoms, ("Be careful out there.") and
b. more importantly for anyone with the condition to be helped to realise it and seek help.

Glenn

 

[Splitlink]

Spitlink,

“If leprechauns…exist, there is no reason to believe that God does not”

Therefore, if God exists, the existence of leprechauns is equally valid?

“If God exists, then he is the only Spiritual Being worth worrying about.” Why so?

“those who do not [believe in God] should not play around with other spiritual ideas”. Therefore, does belief in God allow belief in others? Or is this mutually exclusive? Rejection of one doesn’t necessarily exclude alternatives: “If one does not believe in God, there is no point in believing in anything else.”

Grant.

My thoughts on this have been put together over the years and will take some explaining They are personal to me and I do not expect others to think the same way!

Read the small print-

Let's see if I can explain, without trying to persuade you, because we, all, have to come to terms that we can live with.

I believe that this universe could not have just happened. The Big Bang theory does not work, for me. As a consequence, there is only one Creator and anything else may be possible, but why bother? Go direct to Him, not to tin-pot fairies and elves, etc.

Since I am a Believer in something after death, the course, for me, is clear. Do the best I can. Having said that, though, I am not sure whether he gives us as much importance as we like to think. Neither am I sure if he considers good and evil in the same way as we do. Did Hitler go straight to hell? We would like to think so, but we don't know. Neither, frankly, do I believe that he gives a damn about whether we make money on the stock market, or not. It is all up to us and it is all push and pull, without the use of circles, triangles and, least of all, Truth.

We'll all know the Truth when we get there. Until that comes, we can only do the best that we can and Good, Bad, Right, Wrong is all relative to where we live and the society in which we live.

This is a deep subject. Easy to believe and difficult to explain but, at 75, I am at peace with myself on the spiritual front.

Split

 

[Splitlink]

I don't believe in God as some kind of great supernatural entity. I believe in the force of the universe, i believe in mankind, my family, myself and the good in nature.

What else is there to believe in?

Why do you believe in mankind? Mankind is killing the planet. If there was, ever, a curse upon Earth's living creatures, it is the cancer that is Man.

Split

 

[nickerson334]

Does anyone care to relate this to trading or the identification of delusional traders?



ps Have a good evening everyone. Gym then party!