Day Trading under $25,000

[Trader333]

I understand that this percentage is derived from the data supplied by brokers. It is an easy task to know what percent of your clients have more money in their accounts than when they started although the figure has tended to vary from 80% to 97%


Paul

 

[BBB]

How recent are these figures? As most people with a brokerage account are probably 'investors' with a long term view, it will be no wonder a lot have lost.

90% of new traders probably fail, but the majority may well learn in the longer term how to be profitable. Its like saying 90% of people will never learn to ride a bike because most kids fall off while learning.

 

[TheBramble]

I read an article about this very thing in the US apparently:

Under 3% of people make money.

Of those 3% over 90% have started with accounts in excess of $25k, and 75% started with at least $50k.

Did the article give any breakdown of the starting capital of the 97% that lost?

 

[bigtimetrader]

Just to revisit the topic of Alldaytraders.com
I now know of 3 different people using them and they have all been day trading everyday. All of them have considerably less than $25,000 in their accounts.
I will report back if they have any problems, but from what they've told me so far everything is going fine.

 

[Sirlosealot]

Re: How many of us make any money at all!!

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=529063

Anybody know of any other reliable bits of research on this?

 

[qtyewq]

Alldaytraders.com is bogus. It's not NASD,SEC,SPIC registered. I doubt it has authority to trade US stocks. What they're probably doing is just bookeeping your wins and losses. If they go under, you have no recourse.

 

[bigtimetrader]

Alldaytraders.com is bogus. It's not NASD,SEC,SPIC registered. I doubt it has authority to trade US stocks. What they're probably doing is just bookeeping your wins and losses. If they go under, you have no recourse.

LOL, that is a rather presumptuous statement. Consider these facts:
#1 You do not have to be a US broker to trade US stocks.
#2 Of course they are not NASD or SEC registered, they are not a US broker. They are registered with the Securities Commission of their own country.
#3 Like I said I know 3 people using them currently. My friend who 1st started using them looked into the company and they have something like $50 million under management before they even got into day trading.
#4 They are associated with a legitimate US broker who's tradiing software they use. I doubt that broker would put its own reputation on the line to do a deal with an unscrupulous firm.

I understand being apprehensive about using a non-US broker, but you went a little far saying they're "bogus". You obviously don't know much about what you’re attempting to talk about. If you weren't speaking from some type of experience, I'd love to know whom they ripped off. I know 3 people with accts there that haven't had any problems thus far.
Debate is always a good thing on a message board IMO. However, at least have your facts straight and do some research, otherwise your statement is just useless conjecture and you come across as looking either excessively negative or just plain ignorant.

Has anyone on this board actually opened up an account with Alldaytraders? If you did, your input would certainly be helpful to this topic.

 

[pkfryer]

Coming back to that statistic 97%, I would love that all statistics are backed up by facts and figures! So many times have I heard various figures bandied around as if they were fact because EVERYBODY quotes them! Its the equivalent of believing in flying pigs just because everybody talks about the reality of flying pigs without ever seeing one themselves (religious beliefs spring to mind)

I firmly believe that the people that fail in trading are those that didn't follow a systems and were emotional... you may as well quote how many gamblers lose, as that is all the majority of new traders are. They are from the gambling fraternity looking for a new buzz with better returns! They come in to gamble that somethings going up using a CFD or spread betting account... win a few times! More is better... gamble a few more times with bigger amounts. Blow out... get emotional... lose... lose big time... then realise that its not such easy money only when there few grand has been p!ssed away.

But I have seen through my own investigations that there are systems that give reasonable odds and there are risk management methods that protects us from huge losses when we get it wrong. Its not rocket science following a tried and tested system. Infact, its guaranteed to succeed! We have just got to protect ourselves from emotion by expecting and welcoming losses, as we have to have a number of losses before we get a win... so take them with gratefulness

Also, I think the day trading stats are similar. People who come into day trading with small account often are the gamblers! They want a quick thrill and make some money easy! Its likely that someone who has higher account is someone with more experience (probably acquired through swing trading)... thus there seems to be a correlation when infact its based on some other factors! If you have good methods and systems, a small account can expand nicely... it will just take more time and the commissions and charges equate to a large percentage of the potential profit!

 

[qtyewq]

LOL, that is a rather presumptuous statement. Consider these facts:
#1 You do not have to be a US broker to trade US stocks.
#2 Of course they are not NASD or SEC registered, they are not a US broker. They are registered with the Securities Commission of their own country.
#3 Like I said I know 3 people using them currently. My friend who 1st started using them looked into the company and they have something like $50 million under management before they even got into day trading.
#4 They are associated with a legitimate US broker who's tradiing software they use. I doubt that broker would put its own reputation on the line to do a deal with an unscrupulous firm.

I understand being apprehensive about using a non-US broker, but you went a little far saying they're "bogus". You obviously don't know much about what you’re attempting to talk about. If you weren't speaking from some type of experience, I'd love to know whom they ripped off. I know 3 people with accts there that haven't had any problems thus far.
Debate is always a good thing on a message board IMO. However, at least have your facts straight and do some research, otherwise your statement is just useless conjecture and you come across as looking either excessively negative or just plain ignorant.

Has anyone on this board actually opened up an account with Alldaytraders? If you did, your input would certainly be helpful to this topic.

Hey, nyc-hotshot
(http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=32810&perpage=6&pagenumber=1)

Nice to see you've been promoting the company you work for, you do work for http://www.alldaytraders.com, don't you?

 

[stevem12]

" Nice to see you've been promoting the company you work for, you do work for http://www.alldaytraders.com, don't you?"

QTYEWQ, If you look further back on elitetrader you`ll find he was posting months b4 mentioning this firm, I don`t know him or the firm, but we shouldn`t be quick to jump to conclusions. A mind is a dangerous thing to close.

Steve

 

[bigtimetrader]

Hey, nyc-hotshot
(http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=32810&perpage=6&pagenumber=1)

Nice to see you've been promoting the company you work for, you do work for http://www.alldaytraders.com, don't you?

Sorry pal, I don't work there or even have an account there. I have been a full-time day trader for almost 8 years. I have made my living and bought numerous real estate properties all from the gains I have made trading. My only job is managing those properties and trading.

If you took the time to read my very first post on this thread, I specifically said I had posted the message on elite and was posting here as well because I thought some people might be interested. I've been posting on elite for several years.

 

[rdstagg]

There is nothing particularly wrong with trading an account regulated by the Jamaican version of the SEC. If it were my money I wouldn't. I know the owner of a brokerage in Jamaica and the stories he has told me would turn your head.

You would have to look closely at the Jamaican SEC to see if you felt comfortable with their regulations and protection. Like everything in life it will be just great right up to the point where it goes bang.
I am not having a go at Jamaica - look at Equitable life and below....

Having lost 100k with an American SEC registered firm (NOT a brokerage, this was an insurance company) I would always argue for multiple accounts with multiple brokerages just in case. I personally never let any account get much over 35k in any one brokerage - I remove the gains to the UK. Call me paranoid if you like. It annoys me that you have to keep 25k plus to pattern day trade but those are the rules.

In case anyone is wondering the SEC are wonderful at prosecuting but when it comes to helping investors get their money back my experience is very poor - I currently have client money with this now defunct insurance company of over £5,000,000 so I speak from experience!!

I now view it as another part of the game.

Russell

Sorry pal, I don't work there or even have an account there. I have been a full-time day trader since 1996. I have made my living and bought numerous real estate properties all from the gains I have made trading. My only job is managing those properties and trading.

If you took the time to read my very first post on this thread, I specifically said I had posted the message on elite and was posting here as well because I thought some people might be interested. I've been posting on elite for several years.

 

[Galactic25]

Successful Trader's Capital

ddddHello, I was reading some of the posts about successful daytraders and how much capital you need to be successful. I believe 100% of daytraders lose money, everyone loses money in the market. Successful people lose money and the 5% of people who consistently make money in the market take losses. The people who consitently make money in the markets know how to manage risk. You are up against professional money and they're only concerned with bettering their own accounts; they don't care about you. Trading is not easy. It is not a matter of how much money you start out with, it is only how much experience and/or training and knowledge and understanding of how the markets actually work: by knowing what the professional operators are doing and how the market maker's and specialists manipulate prices in the markets AND your discipline that will make you successful AND your strategy and perhaps even your personality. For example, starting out with $2,000 and trading on 50:1 margin ($4,000) doesn't allow you to trade large sizes initially, so your break-even point with commissions included will be higher, and it will be harder to obtain larger gains, initially. And it will take more points in the market to break-even. Larger positions will allow you much tighter stops for break-even and larger gains and losses. The only thing you can control in the market is yourself. It doesn't matter what methodology you are using, the only thing that matters is your discipline. Having tight stops on every order will allow you to be successful. Before I started daytrading, I had a lot of experience from real-time screen time and casually swing trading and reading the markets. I started daytrading with $2,000 and traded on 50:1 margin and I became a very succesful trader and scalper. I now know how to read the markets: I can read supply and demand or no supply, no demand, I can read what the market makers and specialists are doing. Unless you have the qualities that I mentioned earlier, then I think it is so stupid to start out with $25,000 or $50,000 because you will lose it very quickly. Trading is not gambling when done the right way, but when done the wrong way it can be gambling. Starting out with $25,000 or more has no bearing on your success. Tim

 

[bigtimetrader]

ddddHello, I was reading some of the posts about successful daytraders and how much capital you need to be successful. I believe 100% of daytraders lose money, everyone loses money in the market. Successful people lose money and the 5% of people who consistently make money in the market take losses. The people who consitently make money in the markets know how to manage risk. You are up against professional money and they're only concerned with bettering their own accounts; they don't care about you. Trading is not easy. It is not a matter of how much money you start out with, it is only how much experience and/or training and knowledge and understanding of how the markets actually work: by knowing what the professional operators are doing and how the market maker's and specialists manipulate prices in the markets AND your discipline that will make you successful AND your strategy and perhaps even your personality. For example, starting out with $2,000 and trading on 50:1 margin ($4,000) doesn't allow you to trade large sizes initially, so your break-even point with commissions included will be higher, and it will be harder to obtain larger gains, initially. And it will take more points in the market to break-even. Larger positions will allow you much tighter stops for break-even and larger gains and losses. The only thing you can control in the market is yourself. It doesn't matter what methodology you are using, the only thing that matters is your discipline. Having tight stops on every order will allow you to be successful. Before I started daytrading, I had a lot of experience from real-time screen time and casually swing trading and reading the markets. I started daytrading with $2,000 and traded on 50:1 margin and I became a very succesful trader and scalper. I now know how to read the markets: I can read supply and demand or no supply, no demand, I can read what the market makers and specialists are doing. Unless you have the qualities that I mentioned earlier, then I think it is so stupid to start out with $25,000 or $50,000 because you will lose it very quickly. Trading is not gambling when done the right way, but when done the wrong way it can be gambling. Starting out with $25,000 or more has no bearing on your success. Tim

First off, try seperating you thoughts into paragraphs. It's a lot easier to read and it makes you come across more intelligently than one long run-on post.
Second, of course every trader takes losses from time to time, but that does not mean that 100% lose money. When day trading you will always have some losing trades. A successful day trader has more winners than losers. When we discuss the % that lose money we mean overall, not on one trade.
Third, get your math straight. 50 to 1 margin on $2,000 would be $100,000, not $4,000. $4000 would be 2 to 1 margin on $2,000.
Fourth, this thread is not about managing risk. We all know that risk management is important.
Fifth, whether you are trading against a market maker or not is not relevant. When you place a trade at a specific price it does not really matter who fills you as long as you get the price you are asking for. There are many different strategies someone can use to trade, following or "reading" market makers is just one.

I realize this was your first post, so let me offer you some friendly advice. Try to stay on the topic and try to construct your thoughts in a more presentable manner.

 

[bigtimetrader]

Sorry, if that last post came across as preachy or condescending. I was having a bad day with some real estate investment problems that day and was in a bad mood.

Back to the topic: Out of curiosity, have any of you tried this broker (Alldaytraders)? I know quite a few people using them now and was wondering how your experiences were if you opened an account there.

 

[LevII]

I shall look forward to seeing a review of this broker in the Reviews section of this website.

Has anyone (other than the person who privately accused me of "trying to cause aggro" in post 8, whose view is of no value to me) tried this broker so as to be able to make objective comment?

Naz, you said you were going to check it out. Are you willing to say what you discovered?

 

[Galactic25]

Broker

What broker are you talking about? I have been with Lowtrades.com. Cheapest broker on Wall St., not the fastest though; the speed there is sufficient for me though and I do some fast scalping. I also have traded with Terra Nova: Phenomenal customer service and direct-access broker. Tim

 

[LevII]

What broker are you talking about?

Sorry to be trite, but the one this thread was started about.

Have a look at the first few posts.

Lowtrades.com. Cheapest broker on Wall St

Depends on the size of transaction but, simplictically, IB can be 1/5th the price.

 

[Galactic25]

I can't figure out what broker you are talking about. The name of the thread is Daytrading under $25,000. I read the 1st and 2nd one and they were talking about Jamaica or something.

 

[neil]

$25000 or not

I can't figure out what broker you are talking about. The name of the thread is Daytrading under $25,000. I read the 1st and 2nd one and they were talking about Jamaica or something.

Might be this one mentioned by "Bigtimetrader" in the first post.

http://www.alldaytraders.com/