Confidence

[Splitlink]

I

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

Of course, it means that you are a real trader! If it's every day, for a month, that's good income and lots of us would jump at it.

I think that a lot of us get worried by the posts that start with

"Yep, Superdick, I got worried about the GNP reports, too, and closed out early, only made a couple of hundred this morning but hell, its's only Tuesday."

Most of those haven't a penny to scratch their backsides with.

Just get on with your own thing and don't give up on it.

Split

 

[Slorm]

"what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?"

I think a few have missed the original point and relative answer.

Probably because there's no real answer as we are different individuals. The "jitteryness" in most cases is probably caused by a fear of loss or failure but recognising the cause does not remove it. For me, viewing losses as a business cost works pretty well but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone else.

Length of time and familiarity gained through exposure to a risk should in time help deaden the feeling, but again not for everyone. If Trendie is consistantly making 20 pips a day, over time the jitters should clear up as success becomes self-evident.

There are mental and breathing exercises that can help but unfortunately they take time to master if to be more than a short term palliative and can distract the user from what's happening on-screen.

 

[nkruger]

"what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?"

I think a few have missed the original point and relative answer.

Confidence in a trading strategy that you yourself have developed - not just an 'off the shelf' method bought from Exchange & Mart for £99...

 

[options]

Length of time and familiarity gained through exposure to a risk should in time help deaden the feeling, but again not for everyone."

Jeeez, I hope not...



"Confidence in a trading strategy that you yourself have developed - not just an 'off the shelf' method bought from Exchange & Mart for £99..."

Lol, yeah, but peeps don't want to do any work themselves. They want a tool, system whatever, that gives them 500 points a day for ten minutes work. And even if they think they have such a system, they won't stick to it because they are lazy and think they can improve on it... Or more to the point... They think that something better is around the corner; and then try that one... and on and on and on, but I digress...

 

[nine]

I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?
.....

ANNA ... Anticipate, Notice, Name, Address.

Anticipate the emotion/feeling (plan for when it will occur and expect it)
Notice (it when it happens)
Name it (and keep naming it ... this moves the processing to your forebrain and away from the emotional fear centres ... recently proven scientifically, old buddhist practice).
Address it. Have a plan for what you will do when you experience the emotion ... emotions are not bad, its what people do when they happen ... maybe do 20 pushups if you feel jittery then come back).

Courtesy of Denise Shull.

 

[Slorm]

Length of time and familiarity gained through exposure to a risk should in time help deaden the feeling, but again not for everyone."

Jeeez, I hope not...

For many that's the way it works. You start off nervous, after a while you realise that you can survive, then the fear dies away. The biggest danger then is the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt", it's all about striking a balance.

It's also about perspective. If you lose a few grand it's not the end of the world, you can go out and earn it again. Much better than being hit by a gang of muggers and spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair, now that's real pain.

Confidence in a trading strategy that you yourself have developed - not just an 'off the shelf' method bought from Exchange & Mart for £99..."

Lol, yeah, but peeps don't want to do any work themselves. They want a tool, system whatever, that gives them 500 points a day for ten minutes work. And even if they think they have such a system, they won't stick to it because they are lazy and think they can improve on it... Or more to the point... They think that something better is around the corner; and then try that one... and on and on and on, but I digress...

Then they deserve all they get, or rather lose.

If you put the work in, after a time and a lot of learning you can start to make money but it revolves around understanding the market and why you are making a particular trade. There are no quick fixes, get quick rich schemes, or politically correct pressure group to reward your failure or incompetence.

"A wise man makes mistakes, a fool repeats them", I've certainly been guilty of this, but I digress as well

 

[black bear]

Probably because there's no real answer as we are different individuals. The "jitteryness" in most cases is probably caused by a fear of loss or failure but recognising the cause does not remove it. For me, viewing losses as a business cost works pretty well but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone else.

Length of time and familiarity gained through exposure to a risk should in time help deaden the feeling, but again not for everyone. If Trendie is consistantly making 20 pips a day, over time the jitters should clear up as success becomes self-evident.

There are mental and breathing exercises that can help but unfortunately they take time to master if to be more than a short term palliative and can distract the user from what's happening on-screen.

Hi, They are all great posts, I no where to come next time I want some advice


FEAR. Trade a demo account for 1 month. You have to be clear regarding Entry no grey areas no discretion at all, you have to stand by your method, the one you feel most comfortable with and you think will work.

Demo trade it and stand by the result its the result your frightened of because thats absolute and means you have failed. Discretion gives you a way out an if or a but ? (real money/ discretion on exit only)

No you have to stand by your method with a cristal clear ENTRY and EXIT.

If your method works your confidence will grow.

ps how do you trade and get 20 pips a day , Id kill for that

DECIDE, WRITE IT DOWN. DO IT. STAND BY RESULT

 

[black bear]

I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?

I have tried:
a: treating trading as providing a sales demo, where the trading risk is likened to the petrol spent getting to the clients offices. (no sales means I just lose the petrol costs; pips won means I got the deal)

b: done back-tests as best I can, as there are still some discretionary elements, but I undermine myself by looking at different time-frames.

c: traded so that my wins are same as risk, R1, ie, treat it as a loaded coin. in the long run, I should get a 50%+ hit-rate, and thus make money. this feels good, as I can fire-and-forget, but I can miss the big moves.

d: am trying entering multiple positions on lower time-frames to aggregate entries.
think I am just trying to keep myself occupied.

things that bother me:
1: looking back at finding a better entry.
2: bailing out only for the market to go on without me.

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

Hi Trendie,

More detailed answer than the last post which was a knee jerk reaction to something I experienced myself, I am going to answer every point, my last post was perhaps a bit grey.

each point ~

I cant stand losing, None of us can, I hate to lose So what are we going to do about it :?:

1. Accept loss in our mind as a possible outcome before the event. decide on what our posture will be if we do lose ie shake hands and congratulate our opponent :| (get stopped out and go for a cup of tea)

You have to accept it, you have your plan/ hard stop and limit in the market you have exercised all the control you can (trailing stops etc) you are protected by your own well thought out method YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR. NOTHING

2. You have tried various methods and you look back and see better entries.

Classic case of beating ones self up after the event and in my case/sport snooker would involve looking back at a missed pot. The point is the missed pot is not relevent only to me it is what happens next that is. This respone if negative and not well thought out will ruin my chance of winning the match.

MY opponent clears up with a 60 break

Constantly remind yourself that what happens next is all that matters and is going to have any bearing on the result . :| Take the next shot (trade) and execute your plan as you wrote it.

To start with have one simple plan, I ended up not able to trade because I had so many methods etc going on in my mind. Bill would do this macd says that ow look how the swing traders are doing today etc

ONE PLAN to include the usual, its a fix not to make money a simple trading plan to help you automate trading and remove FEAR OF FAILURE

an example - I could not trade because logic prevented me, I had lost one bank (All my own doing ) Thanks for advice TW2 at least I had the commen sense to have a bank so the only damage was to me own head. The 2nd bank was down to 50% drawdown Fear ! I had followed the rules reduced my bank size followed my planssssssssss.

6 months I traded on pure FEAR not big stakes but the FEAR of failure would not go away, I recovered the bank january this year (07) I joined T2W proper and went back to the start. I had to many plannnnnnnnnnnssssssssssss/and ideassssssss:idea:

I wrote down a simple plan , and I am telling you it was simple, I decided to short or long the Dow using the week candles. If they had a poor week I would enter long the next week and hope to capture a weeks price move. thats it. I shorted the DOW right up the bollingers this summer because it finnished on its High most weeks so it was going down next week, right ? in what terned out to be the best bull run for some time.

I followed my plan to the letter, every monday I looked for a contray entry at the weeks High or Low, got stopped out got stopped out etc etc used discretion in the face of the bull to grab profits where I could I danced along all them TOPS.

Yes it was mad but the point is I followed the plan if thats what it was and it worked
My account was un- damaged. I had traded for 3 months without any FEAR taking the next trade in front of me.

sorry got carried away here ,

I hope you see the point, it does not have to be a very good plan, and yes I really did that and my account was level at the end of it my FEAR had gone and my confidence was well in credit .

3. Gamblers mindset, I think we all have this one a bit, we want a quick fix of what we want, a winning trade, so we close early and pray the market conforms our action, then we pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. NOT
Just don"t do that average in if the 1st positions wrong wait till its right before considerng another position.
I am still learnin this one so I will stop here :|

4. keeping busy, I find if I open a trade ticket with entry and check the progress or not of the trade it stops me , well I dont no what it stops me doin, but it feels constructive and helps me from straying from the job in hand (trade ftse intra day at moment) No 20 pips problem for me there mate

Hope posts from all have helped a bit

 

[chump]

I hate trite sounding stuff ,but unfortunately it's sometimes true. In this case it's pretty basic stuff ....knowledge/understanding ...transmitted into action ....leads to further understanding/knowledge .(if you know how to 'learn') ..this then leads to increasing confidence ...it's a loop. You preserve your resources in this loop so that every transaction gives you some learning 'reward' in moving you forward. Force it and it will cost you.
Shortcuts in the loop don't exist as such ,but speed in the process will vary depending on 'how well you know how to learn'....people who get cut up over not being right when they want to be...think they know better despite the facts facing them..are not prepared to learn from others mistakes ,or successes ....and on and on in true egotistical style ...do not 'know how to learn' and they may never get the confidence of being able to make the rational decision that the market asks for every time you confront it.... it's trite ,it's basic and above all it's very personal.

 

[Citizen2007]

I think confidence will come once you have the disciplne to follow your rules and your ules will come only once you are VERY VERY CLEAR about them.

For example you must know what timeframe trend you are following, know when it begins and ends, know when to lock in profits , when to enter, when to exit, when to reverse. When there is a retracement and how it is defined, when it is not a retracement and the market will continue .

I know I am stating the obvious here, but the one thing that i wanted to add was the exact PRECISION with which these are defined is of the unmost importance. Only then will you be TRULY clear about your actions in the market.

 

[chump]

Citizen,
what you are describing is ok as far as it goes and it could produce some ' consistency' for a period, indeed it's step forward in some ways in the early stages of learning, BUT if that's all a trader thinks this is about then that trader will get 'nailed' and then that trader will be back wondering whether he needs to take a rest from the markets while he ponders what went wrong and what he needs to do to correct it.
Rules need to be pinned in understanding of what lies beneath them. If you don't understand the causes (what makes these rules work) then you won't recognise when they are not working except through a time lag control on performance...in other words it's a curve fit without the dynamic element of the market accounted for. In that sense rule based trading without understanding is a confidence seesaw. Some people will survive that and move on and others definitely won't.

 

[Citizen2007]

Chump ,

I agree totally with what you are saying. I maybe missed that point on this thread as i had just finished making that same point about the understanding behind it all on another thread.

I have based the above comment on my understanding that if you know what part of the cycle you are in, you will then understand how the market behaves during that phase and thus have your strategy defined accordingly. My comments may be simplistic in an area that requires more detail and i could waffle on for hours about something and nobody could be listening. Lets see what questions arise if any and go from there.

Thank You

 

[black bear]

Citizen,
what you are describing is ok as far as it goes and it could produce some ' consistency' for a period, indeed it's step forward in some ways in the early stages of learning, BUT if that's all a trader thinks this is about then that trader will get 'nailed' and then that trader will be back wondering whether he needs to take a rest from the markets while he ponders what went wrong and what he needs to do to correct it.
Rules need to be pinned in understanding of what lies beneath them. If you don't understand the causes (what makes these rules work) then you won't recognise when they are not working except through a time lag control on performance...in other words it's a curve fit without the dynamic element of the market accounted for. In that sense rule based trading without understanding is a confidence seesaw. Some people will survive that and move on and others definitely won't.

There you are ,

prompted someone with a better use of English and understanding of the subject into life really good posts I think the asker of the Question should be busy for a few months if he /she really wants to move forward

The 1 st time I lost my confidence was when I was 10, I was good at rounders and could hit the ball right out of the park, then one day I could"nt the more I tried the worse it got

Then one day many years later it occured to me while playing a game I love (snooker) A game I am told I have good stance /posture and technique at, that the one thing you have to do correctly in order to really improve and play consistantly is keep your eye on the ball at all times. oh y and keep your head still,, ok ok thats 2

You have to no that what you think is the middle of the cue ball is in fact the middle of the cue ball and that you are not deceiving yourself into believing you are striking the middle when in fact you are inparting side on every strike.

Again great posts , I will have a question or 2 or 3 for you 2 later I am sure

 

[rols]

I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?

I have tried:
a: treating trading as providing a sales demo, where the trading risk is likened to the petrol spent getting to the clients offices. (no sales means I just lose the petrol costs; pips won means I got the deal)

b: done back-tests as best I can, as there are still some discretionary elements, but I undermine myself by looking at different time-frames.

c: traded so that my wins are same as risk, R1, ie, treat it as a loaded coin. in the long run, I should get a 50%+ hit-rate, and thus make money. this feels good, as I can fire-and-forget, but I can miss the big moves.

d: am trying entering multiple positions on lower time-frames to aggregate entries.
think I am just trying to keep myself occupied.

things that bother me:
1: looking back at finding a better entry.
2: bailing out only for the market to go on without me.

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

Been there, done those.

Possible solutions.

Trade from hourly charts or greater and enter target and stop as bracket order, then walk away.

If you don't know 100%, then don't take the trade.

IMO, confidence is knowing that you really know that you have earned the necessary knowledge, technique and discipline and you will not falter, even under the most extreme conditions.

 

[trendie]

nerves back again.
can't explain why. when I get a losing trade, I become reluctant to take the next signal.
after even 2 consec losses and I just freeze.
utterly bizarre.

have changed rules recently for reasons of simplification (fewer indicators), but in principle I still buy lower-TF oversold in higher-TF uptrend, and vice versa. (pullbacks)

consequence of nerves is, have been snatching at smaller profits, but still take full stop-loss, so win average and loss average all shot to pieces.

I think its the grass-is-greener mentality.
have been wondering if I can make more pips for less effort, and second-guessing and checking out other alternative methods.
disaster.

help. what do I do?

 

[BSD]

in principle I still buy lower-TF oversold in higher-TF uptrend, and vice versa. (pullbacks)

Sounds like you have a good robust system that is in tune with how markets work.

System's good, so no problems there.

Money management probably ditto.

Which leaves you.

What I do to keep things properly aligned is to view the individual trade as totally irrelevant in the big scheme of things, as entirely inconsequential in what will be a life long trading career, as just a drop in or out of an ocean that will keep feeding me in the long term.

Win or lose, try to not despair nor jubilate, just view the outcome with detachment.

If bad feelings / fear / panic surface don't try and fight them, that will only make them stronger. Just say hi to fear and its various guises when they make an appearance, look at them with indifference, and let them gradually recede again through ignoring them after acknowledging them.

One can learn to do that by accepting that our fears are almost always larger than what we actually have to fear itself, as in Henry Fords "the only thing we need to fear is fear itself", scrutinized under bold daylight not much remains of fear's perceived threat.

Believe that the Universe will bail you out at the end of the day as in "The Secret", or, if that's too esoteric for you, believe in yourself, or in whatever gets the job done.

Different things work for different people, have you thought about working with a coach, be it stuff like NLP, Autogenic Training, Yoga, Hypnosis etc ?

That is what I would do, meddling around on your own too long might become part of the problem without contributing to its solution.

Best of luck !!!

 

[Splitlink]

nerves back again.
can't explain why. when I get a losing trade, I become reluctant to take the next signal.
after even 2 consec losses and I just freeze.
utterly bizarre.

have changed rules recently for reasons of simplification (fewer indicators), but in principle I still buy lower-TF oversold in higher-TF uptrend, and vice versa. (pullbacks)

consequence of nerves is, have been snatching at smaller profits, but still take full stop-loss, so win average and loss average all shot to pieces.

I think its the grass-is-greener mentality.
have been wondering if I can make more pips for less effort, and second-guessing and checking out other alternative methods.
disaster.

help. what do I do?

Confidence is gained by success. If the plan doesn't work, you'll lose confidence. So you need to have a string of successes instead of a string of failures. Perhaps, you should reduce risk? Confidence doesn't come into the equation when I am playing a game of chess with my son. I do the best I can, but confidence doesn't come into it. It would, though, if I was playing poker with fifty quid on the table. "Should I raise or jack it in?"

So risk is, definitely, in there for me and it shows if I take money out of the account for Christmas, etc. Afterwards, I wonder whether there is enough in the account, or whether I took too much out. I need to make more cash to bolster my account again. Then I get confident and increase my risk.

You are not sure of your plan, are you? If you won consistently you would be confident.

You could try working on orders and washing your hands of the matter after you have worked it out. Then, you would not freeze. They say that it is better to open manually but I use orders quite a bit when I have other things to do.

 

[trendie]

.....

You are not sure of your plan, are you? If you won consistently you would be confident.

You could try working on orders and washing your hands of the matter after you have worked it out. Then, you would not freeze. They say that it is better to open manually but I use orders quite a bit when I have other things to do.

now thats a question and a half! truth is, I don't know.
logically, trading pullbacks is, for me, the most logical way to trade. market shows its hand, and I look for bargain entries.
I dont need to guess the direction, its apparent; its a matter of jumping on board.
but lately, maybe its due to volatility, I have not been getting in well, and bail out too soon. choppy markets are an occupational hazard.

Orders dont work for me, as its a combo of indicators that set up the trade, so it happens when it happens. I dont feel confident of asessing S/R levels
to be able to place orders.

thanks both Splitlink and BSD for reply.
maybe I need a holiday.

 

[Splitlink]

No, no, you don't need a holiday. Come back here!

How do you know that a pullback is one, or a breakout of a new trend? That is a question that I put to Barjon and he told me "to assume" it is until the contrary is proven. That takes confidence and why? Because it made me profits and I put the idea that it could be a reversal aside. Since I made some good trades in a row I became confident that that works, but I was not confident that Jon was right until the pullbacks
worked for me. That is why I believe that you are not getting enough winners, otherwise confidence would not be a problem for you.

What do you prefer trading?

Split

 

[trendie]

No, no, you don't need a holiday. Come back here!

How do you know that a pullback is one, or a breakout of a new trend? That is a question that I put to Barjon and he told me "to assume" it is until the contrary is proven. That takes confidence and why? Because it made me profits and I put the idea that it could be a reversal aside. Since I made some good trades in a row I became confident that that works, but I was not confident that Jon was right until the pullbacks
worked for me. That is why I believe that you are not getting enough winners, otherwise confidence would not be a problem for you.

What do you prefer trading?

Split

EURJPY, GBPUSD, USDJPY and EURUSD. (with some FTSE and Dow)

pullback/reversal: have to assume the trend will continue. however, if it is a reversal, the cost "should" be minimal, since I am buying at the lower end of the up-channel of prices, for want of a better phrase. or selling at the upper end of the down-channel. if I am wrong, the cost of finding I am wrong is small compared to getting in anywhere else.
I am trading the extreme of the noise and expecting reversion to the mean of the trend.
hook backs are cheap cost of entry. but, I am finding they go further out, spook me, and then do what I expected by reverting. my loss/win (amounts) is now negative to marginal.
sometimes the hooks are so far out I assume a trend-change and that messes me up as to whether we are going up or down.

correct, I am not getting enough winners. but thats down to me taking small profits.
I am finding I am easily spooked by spikes against me.

must admit also that sometimes when reading other methods, my thoughts are clouded by how another method would indicate a trade other than the one I would normally take, and that also messes with my head. specifically, I have been reading Noconas "NERS" CCI methods as well as DrBobs CCI.