CMC Markets Charts : No Volume ?

[Trader333]

I actually started to reply to the above but as this has been discussed to death in previous years I have removed my main post. I suggest that a search is done on T2W about this subject and especially SB companies and then make up your own mind. What I will say is that the Annual Report of one of the big SB companies back in around 2003 said the following:

Actual operating margins are below that forecast because clients have been more successful than was anticipated. This is not expected to continue and measures are in place to bring margins back in line with budgetary forecasts.

This would not be possible if total exposure is hedged and I am referring to spreadbets here not CFDs


Paul

 

[jkplay]

I actually started to reply to the above but as this has been discussed to death in previous years I have removed my main post. I suggest that a search is done on T2W about this subject and especially SB companies and then make up your own mind. What I will say is that the Annual Report of one of the big SB companies back in around 2003 said the following:

Actual operating margins are below that forecast because clients have been more successful than was anticipated. This is not expected to continue and measures are in place to bring margins back in line with budgetary forecasts.

This would not be possible if total exposure is hedged and I am referring to spreadbets here not CFDs


Paul

Paul,

Market Makers hedge their overall exposure and it is rediculous for you to suggest otherwise. CMC markets for example has no more than 20 dealers working at the same time. How many trades do you think are place through them? On average 1 every 2 seconds.

Are you suggesting that they ''bet against'' every single on of those trades instead of matching the opposite bets up and looking at their overall exposure????

I am not going to trawl through t2w to read retail investors moaning about malicious stop filling, fake prices or whatever else. People can easily loose alot of money spreadbetting and the arrogant ones need to point the finger as it must be someone else's fault.

Fair enough their might be circumstances when mistakes are made but it isn't fair to act like these happen all the time and that the industry is corrupt.

Can you please email me proof of that 2003 report because I don't believe you.

JK

 

[Trader333]

Are you suggesting that they ''bet against'' every single on of those trades instead of matching the opposite bets up and looking at their overall exposure????

No it is far more clever than that

I am not going to trawl through t2w to read retail investors moaning about malicious stop filling, fake prices or whatever else. People can easily loose alot of money spreadbetting and the arrogant ones need to point the finger as it must be someone else's fault.

People lose money trading full stop. It wasn't about the fact people lose it was about blatant differences in quote from the same source depending on who you were.

Fair enough their might be circumstances when mistakes are made but it isn't fair to act like these happen all the time and that the industry is corrupt.

Most trades are automated and as such mistakes should not be possible other than systems failures which is not what the issue was.

Can you please email me proof of that 2003 report because I don't believe you.

No I can't, it wasn't me discussing it at the time but there were quite a few who were and had seen the same report. To be honest I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. What I have reviewed here is mild in comparison to other evidence that has been presented. I have not said that the whole industry is corrupt but there has been many cases of unfair practices.

You just don't hear the same complaints from those who use proper retail brokers and you have to ask why that is ? It is different for CFDs and I am referring specifically to SB in the above discussion.

As happened on previous threads of the same subject you get the same "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" arguments that went on for ages so I am done here and wont be replying to any more posts.


Paul

 

[jkplay]

No it is far more clever than that

I have close ties in the industry and know how spreadbetting companies operate. You read company reports and make thousands of posts on an internet forum. I can imagine that you lost alot of money in the markets aswell

People lose money trading full stop. It wasn't about the fact people lose it was about blatant differences in quote from the same source depending on who you were.

Yes... I know people loose money but the people who have made lots of money spreadbetting wouldn't be on the internet moaning about the actions of firms? I find alot of the discussions very one sided on this forum.

Oh I can understand what you are saying...

Market makers brain (according to trader333):-

This guy trades alot and is making money (keeps paying the spread)

We don't like this...( They are laughing because they make the spread for each trade in reality)

Lets make him loose money by manipulating the data feed and malliciously fill his stop (he then checks via a 3rd party data feed and stops trading with them... stops paying the spread.... and tells all his friends how bad xcz spreads are)


There is logical reason why they would do this over watching the overall books. Infact, I would go as far as to say it is ridiculous to suggest the big market makers would do this. They don't have an army of evil dealers doing people over all day. Temporary data feed problems may occur.

Most trades are automated and as such mistakes should not be possible other than systems failures which is not what the issue was.

Please explain what you mean by such mistakes? By saying most trades are automated are you not contradicting yourself? If you trade very large volumes then SPREADBETTING IS NOT FOR YOU. You will have issues with being on dealer referral.

No I can't, it wasn't me discussing it at the time but there were quite a few who were and had seen the same report. To be honest I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. What I have reviewed here is mild in comparison to other evidence that has been presented. I have not said that the whole industry is corrupt but there has been many cases of unfair practices.

Ok so the report shall remain a mystery and I will have to take your word for it....

I am not trying to present evidence to anti-spreadbettors like yourself but simply inform and give a balanced view to people who use these boards for research... not moaning.

You just don't hear the same complaints from those who use proper retail brokers and you have to ask why that is ? It is different for CFDs and I am referring specifically to SB in the above discussion.

If you monitor a cfd account with ig/cmc and a spreadbet one you can watch the markets tick up and down the same. Please explain the difference (apart from the obvious in how the prices are quoted and viewing market depth) in speculating with CFD's and spreadbetting? Don't talk to me about order book participation as most retail investors would never trade enough to move the market. From an analysis point of view it may be important but not in terms of execution for Mr Average part-time trader.

As happened on previous threads of the same subject you get the same "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" arguments that went on for ages so I am done here and wont be replying to any more posts.

I find your view one sided and arrogant so I am happy for you not to comment on my post.

JK

 

[Richie_A]

Thanks for the input guys, i think it's good for me to read different opinions. I opened the account to follow the markets more closely with a vested interest. Also I basically wanted to "trade" - (in quotes as obviously you don't own the underlying asset) short term and get some real education. Have I made the mistake of thinking that spread betting is a good start? Or is it better to think more longer term and open a retail broker account?

-If someone has already asked this, please let me know and I'll search through the boards.
Cheers
Rich

 

[lurkerlurker]

Yes... I know people loose money but the people who have made lots of money spreadbetting wouldn't be on the internet moaning about the actions of firms? I find alot of the discussions very one sided on this forum.

I don't have much to say about the rest of your post, or the thread in general, but just a case in point - I made a lot of money spreadbetting and had issues with one particular firm. They wouldn't or couldn't resolve the issue to my satisfaction, so I moved to a different SB firm, and I am still making a lot of money spreadbetting.

It isn't always just the losers who bitch - I understand how the markets work, and was aware that one of the smaller SB firms was rather dubious with its practices (and I'm not talking about what happens when I put a stop in a silly place either). Then again, I've moved on, not having issue at the larger firms I trade with now, and I will go direct access in due course.

Just thought I'd add that for what it is worth. Not all SB firms are out to rip us off, and not everyone who complains is a clueless retail trader who doesn't understand FV, book risk, or how the markets work.

* - lots of money is subjective. I'm not talking about trading £100pp and making £10k per week, but my monthly P&L is quite good in terms of capital growth and total pips, and I am fairly consistent now (although I do need to rethink a lot of my trading). I'm talking about trading no more than the equivalent of 3 or 4 mini futures, or 1 forex lot, or 1000 shares.

 

[Trader333]

I can imagine that you lost alot of money in the markets aswell

You really know very little about me by having posted this. I have posted live trades on here, taught people to trade in real time in their own homes, posted my broker executions and given a lot of people help in improving their trading including those who wish to use spreadbetting. There is very little that I comment negatively about but I will comment where appropriate.

I also have numerous contacts in this industry and have posted here since January 2003 so the number of posts is reflective of my length of membership. I am unsure why you have decided to make this a personal attack on me but I guess that you are in some way employed by one of these companies and if not I am even more unsure.

Either way I wish you well in your ventures.


Paul

 

[Lightning McQueen]

Somewhere on this forum is/was a link to the website of the developers of SB's actual software that's used at their end for managing the whole show, its not really meant for our eyes...the capability of the software is to give the client a damn severe rogering - no lube !!! very scary indeed, this is required reading IMO, I can't find it...anyone care to, or know the link, cheers.

Lightning

 

[Charlton]

Somewhere on this forum is/was a link to the website of the developers of SB's actual software that's used at their end for managing the whole show, its not really meant for our eyes...the capability of the software is to give the client a damn severe rogering - no lube !!! very scary indeed, this is required reading IMO, I can't find it...anyone care to, or know the link, cheers.

Lightning

Perhaps

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-20742.html

Charlton

 

[Splitlink]

Thanks for the input guys, i think it's good for me to read different opinions. I opened the account to follow the markets more closely with a vested interest. Also I basically wanted to "trade" - (in quotes as obviously you don't own the underlying asset) short term and get some real education. Have I made the mistake of thinking that spread betting is a good start? Or is it better to think more longer term and open a retail broker account?

-If someone has already asked this, please let me know and I'll search through the boards.
Cheers
Rich

A lot of people have gone to the retailer brokers and have lost more money there than with the spreadbet firms. I think that spreadbetting is the only sensible way for a person of limited means to start. It is no good pretending to be what one is not. I've said this before and I don't mind saying it again. When I lose money on a trade it is because I was wrong about what I thought the market would do. I can look at it and find the reason that I lost. I get annoyed with fills, at times, the same as everyone else. In fact, my stops are what I put on in case of an emergency computer/site crash and I prefer to use manual ones, whenever possible. Brokers like IB have much quicker and sophisticated platforms than the SB's do. However, my advice is to use a broker when you, really, are making consistent money with SB firms because, until then, you do not, yet, have the expertise to grow your account.

I'll say, quite definitely, and I don't care whether I'm believed or not, either, that I make good money when I enter trades going in the right direction. When they are wrong I lose.

Whose fault is that?

Split

 

[lurkerlurker]

Good point well made Splitlink. I'm still spreadbetting, and have closed the account with the firm in question. I will continue to spreadbet for the forseeable future. There are many bucket shops, and if this one decides to mess me about because I am winning (unlikely, but possible), then I will go somewhere else. Lather, rinse, repeat until I am out of SB firms or am ready to go DMA anyway.

Regarding the software - I don't like the "make extra pips on stop losses" - but then again, who hasn't called to query a badly slipped stop at a bucket shop for a position of more than a few pounds a point - from what I have heard they will give you a more realistic fill if you have been slipped unnecessarily. Of course, anyone who attempts to straddle a number with STOPS through SB is asking to get rogered. There are ways to trade the news, and this is not one of them!

 

[gle101]

A lot of people have gone to the retailer brokers and have lost more money there than with the spreadbet firms. I think that spreadbetting is the only sensible way for a person of limited means to start. It is no good pretending to be what one is not. I've said this before and I don't mind saying it again. When I lose money on a trade it is because I was wrong about what I thought the market would do. I can look at it and find the reason that I lost. I get annoyed with fills, at times, the same as everyone else. In fact, my stops are what I put on in case of an emergency computer/site crash and I prefer to use manual ones, whenever possible. Brokers like IB have much quicker and sophisticated platforms than the SB's do. However, my advice is to use a broker when you, really, are making consistent money with SB firms because, until then, you do not, yet, have the expertise to grow your account.

I'll say, quite definitely, and I don't care whether I'm believed or not, either, that I make good money when I enter trades going in the right direction. When they are wrong I lose.

Whose fault is that?

Split

I certainly agree, the major problem in being a successful trader is not the SB platform itself. There are definitely SB company issues that need to be solved but they are not so grave so as to keep one from trading with them. There are issues with DMA as well, it is not flawless as many make them out to be. The actual difference in spread with DMA is not really that much (especially if you are a swing trader), if one takes the DMA commission into consideration. What I prefer the most using a DMA broker compared to an SB company is platform functions and front end applications (API), to be able to use predefined user stop loss and trailing stop loss is very important. I would say that the SB is a great way to start for the novice trader. The initial deposit is not big and the stake is much lower compared to DMA. SB is also a great way for testing new trading strategies, which can turn out to be very painful using a DMA broker.

 

[Richie_A]

Just a couple of questions, is DMA the same as DA (which is Direct Access?) Is Direct Access the type of service, a company such as Interactive Brokers, provides?

Richie

 

[gle101]

Just a couple of questions, is DMA the same as DA (which is Direct Access?) Is Direct Access the type of service, a company such as Interactive Brokers, provides?

Richie

Yes it is.

 

[Lightning McQueen]

Perhaps

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-20742.html

Charlton

Thanks charlton, thats the one.

Arial communications - http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

Yes, sorry, CMC aren't in the list of SB's that use this outfit, so a little off topic really, Im sure theirs will be functionaly similar.

Now that I've read that thread again I have to admit it doesn't sound as sinister, especially taking account of GammaJammer's comments.

As Split has said, unless your loaded, spread betting is a good a place as any to start off with. Search out the posts of the successful SB'ers, look at the way they're trading and learn from it. Compare this with the posts of the people who have unfortunatly had difficulty...I think I see a pattern emerging here, also read the Capital Spread thread for insight into why trading may become difficult for the SB'er.

An excellent quote from Atilla, post 3352, Capital Spread thread...can we learn from it, of course we can, have we learned so far, as a group...probably not

I have a suspicious belief they manipulate prices to take out Stop positions. I can't prove it but over a period of four years it's engraved into me like DNA. No matter how wide my SL they always get taken with prices reversing pretty quickly.

IMO I think as well as learning the art of the charts, one needs to learn the art of the spread betters and how the system works.

In a feeble attempt to post on the threads main topic about the lack of volume on spread betting, its not been mentioned on this thread so far, that forex traders manage perfectly well without volume, I am not into fx, so if this is a wrong assumption that fx lacks volume I am very happy to be corrected... unlike others who leave up their misdirections for others to follow leading up god knows what garden path

Lightning

 

[gle101]

Thanks charlton, thats the one.

Arial communications - http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

Yes, sorry, CMC aren't in the list of SB's that use this outfit, so a little off topic really, Im sure theirs will be functionaly similar.

Now that I've read that thread again I have to admit it doesn't sound as sinister, especially taking account of GammaJammer's comments.

As Split has said, unless your loaded, spread betting is a good a place as any to start off with. Search out the posts of the successful SB'ers, look at the way they're trading and learn from it. Compare this with the posts of the people who have unfortunatly had difficulty...I think I see a pattern emerging here, also read the Capital Spread thread for insight into why trading may become difficult for the SB'er.

An excellent quote from Atilla, post 3352, Capital Spread thread...can we learn from it, of course we can, have we learned so far, as a group...probably not




In a feeble attempt to post on the threads main topic about the lack of volume on spread betting, its not been mentioned on this thread so far, that forex traders manage perfectly well without volume, I am not into fx, so if this is a wrong assumption that fx lacks volume I am very happy to be corrected... unlike others who leave up their misdirections for others to follow leading up god knows what garden path

Lightning

Yes there are a lot of different administrated back office parameters that can be implemented on every trading platform, this is nothing new. As a former IT technician I know what is possible in this area. Yes everything can be done to insure that the SB is on the right side of the trade, no question about it. However, it is my experience that most of the SB's have the ambition to run a dependable spread betting operation. Remember, they have the odds on their side through the spread. Again there are issues that need to be cleared out but this doesn't mean they are all bad guys. As stated before we need regulation to be implemented for this industry, to assure fair play especially concerning "Best execution" issues. The biggest problem for the SB company is not constantly winning clients. It is how they run their books, secure their spread, and still keep their client stock intact. Increasing competition with narrowing spread ask for a sound hedging policy in order to survive in this highly competitive industry. The only areas where I see the need for more competition is where execution and platform functions are concerned. Maybe the MiFID "Best execution" directive will be the starting point for this to happen.

Forex ECN brokers have volume but not SB's and retail Forex operators (Market Makers).

 

[Tileman]

SB is also a great way for testing new trading strategies, which can turn out to be very painful using a DMA broker.

gle101

Could you explain why this is so ?

Graham

 

[Splitlink]

gle101

Could you explain why this is so ?

Graham

With a broker you are trading, minimum, one contract i.e. 10 per point of whatever currency the instrument is traded in. Trying out a new strategy, where the chances of losses are probable, might as well be with a SB firm, which accept bets as low as 50p per point.

Split

 

[gle101]

gle101

Could you explain why this is so ?

Graham

You can have a lower initial stake at SB compared to DMA. Every tick at DMA involves a higher amount of money as one usually trades the futures. Also you have to add the commission as well. Altogether the spread might be better at DMA but you risk a lot more money if the position goes against you. Of course if the position goes your way, you win a lot more. But then, that might not be a chance you are willing to take, while testing a new strategy!

 

[gle101]

With a broker you are trading, minimum, one contract i.e. 10 per point of whatever currency the instrument is traded in. Trying out a new strategy, where the chances of losses are probable, might as well be with a SB firm, which accept bets as low as 50p per point.

Split

Yes correctly, and also if you have the SB account in Swedish crowns and you bet 1 unit the initial stake is ridiculous low.