career switch to trading?

[SanMiguel]

Got a couple of questions based on a career in trading whether home retail trading or trading for a professional trading firm? I'm in the UK so any courses would have to be UK based.

I quit my IT job more than year ago to go travelling around the world for a few months - partly because I got bored with the whole day to day office style 9-5. I returned in the midst of recession and got interested in trading whilst it was proving difficult to get another job. After 8 months or so of studying and trading intensely (12 hr days, reading FX and index strategies, etc.), I am only just turning the corner into profitable trading.

What I am worried about is the gap on my CV for potential jobs if trading doesn't work out. However, I find trading a much more rewarding and stimulating (psychologically/intellectually) hobby/job than what I was doing previously for 10 years (now aged 30). I was going to give myself 6 more months to prove it to myself that this could be a rewarding career but I'm stuck in the Catch 22 situation where I cannot learn daytrading whilst having a job at the same time, yet if I do this and it doesn't work out, then I have a massive gap on my CV.

So, what options could I come up with in the meantime to fill the gap? Are there trading firms that take on traders to trade their account whilst learning, are there financial courses that I could do part time to allow me to day trade that would also look good on my CV in case it doesn't work out? Any tips appreciated

 

[shadowninja]

"Financial courses"? Like trading seminars? Or do you mean like an economics degree? Former is a joke, latter would look better on a CV but probably not much use.

If you try to join a trading firm (prop shop, I presume you mean), then you will have to apply for a job like any other trainee, which means competing with others so it's not a guarantee.

I guess your only option is to lie on the CV. Or do something appropriate so that you don't have to lie. (I'd like to think you could work something out for yourself since you've written very eloquently.)

 

[SanMiguel]

"Financial courses"? Like trading seminars? Or do you mean like an economics degree? Former is a joke, latter would look better on a CV but probably not much use.

If you try to join a trading firm (prop shop, I presume you mean), then you will have to apply for a job like any other trainee, which means competing with others so it's not a guarantee.

I guess your only option is to lie on the CV. Or do something appropriate so that you don't have to lie. (I'd like to think you could work something out for yourself since you've written very eloquently.)

Yes, I mean courses to fill the gap in the CV like a part time degree or something. I'm not interested in seminars - anything that I could learn from a seminar I have probably already self taught or read in books/forums or could still learn in the same way. What I'm really looking for is a plan B in case trading doesn't work out over the next 6 months or so. Like I said, it's a catch 22 situation to make it work.
"Or do something appropriate so that you don't have to lie." - such as?

I'm guessing prop shops look for some sort of experience though? And I've got to say, I'm not thrilled by working 12hrs days in an office even though I enjoy working 12hr days on my own trading account.

I'm just looking for options, advice, or even experiences of others that have gone through similar in their early trading careers. Even advice saying "don't bother" but I guess on a trading forum there won't be much of that about

 

[shadowninja]

Such as? I already wrote a reply covering this question.

I'd think about what else I might want to do and train up for that. Damn, I answered the question.

 

[SanMiguel]

Such as? I already wrote a reply covering this question.

I'd think about what else I might want to do and train up for that. Damn, I answered the question.

Yeah, all of which require working and not being able to trade hence the catch 22
Are you a professional trader? If so, when did you switch over to being a professional or did you train up as on?
Alternatively, do you work and trade when you can and how do you find trading while working on another job?

 

[Dommo]

If it doesn't work out, so be it - just tell the truth when you look for a job. You travelled, then ran a full time trading business for a while. Employers aren't going to look at you in horror because you spent 18m doing these things. You had 10 years solid prior to that. People take sabbaticals.

It's a waste of time, life and money to go and do something only for the sake of filling a gap on the CV. Besides, either it does or it doesn't work out for you in trading. If it doesn't and you have some finance qualification - what are you going to use it for? To get back into an IT role (where your experience is) or do you plan to move from IT into finance?

I'm sure you weren't considering it, but don't lie on your CV - I don't need to explain why. As advice, that beggars belief.

 

[shadowninja]

Yeah, all of which require working and not being able to trade hence the catch 22
Are you a professional trader? If so, when did you switch over to being a professional or did you train up as on?
Alternatively, do you work and trade when you can and how do you find trading while working on another job?

I run another business when I so choose to do so.

PS think of something else you can do, then.

 

[shadowninja]

I'm sure you weren't considering it, but don't lie on your CV - I don't need to explain why. As advice, that beggars belief.

Indeed. It was given tongue in cheek. I think people need to think through what they will tell a prospective employer and think about what it means to an employer. As you suggest, it could mean they just ran a business that didn't pan out. Some take a dim view of trading, however.

 

[donaldduke]

If the IT jobs market hasn't improved in six or twelve months from now its going to be tough to get back in. If the IT job market is booming it will be much easier.

If you got friends in IT who can find you work at their place it will make getting back into IT much easier. I tried trading full time for six months back in 2002, failed and then phoned a friend, very lucky he was able to recommend me as there weren't many jobs around.

I didnt tell them at the interview that i had been trading. I just said i had spent the last six months looking for work and was being really picky.

 

[SanMiguel]

Some take a dim view of trading, however.

Yeah, that's an issue - why would it be looked upon badly.
Some employers take gaps on CVs badly and some take sabbaticals badly as well - depends on the company

Did any of you guys go through a similar process or do you not trade full time?

WHat do prop shops look for? Consistent traders with their own account?

 

[shadowninja]

It could be seen as gambling especially if you say you do (financial) spreadbetting. If you are to be working in a trusted environment (whether it's in accounts or dealing with personal data inc financial info) they may see you as a potential problem.

 

[SanMiguel]

It could be seen as gambling especially if you say you do (financial) spreadbetting. If you are to be working in a trusted environment (whether it's in accounts or dealing with personal data inc financial info) they may see you as a potential problem.

I guess 1 option is to go with the risk for another 6 months. In your opinion is that a reasonable time to prove myself given the learning curve so far?
Working for a prop shop could be another option but I'm not sure the training would cover anything I haven't learnt already - at least it would seem like a proper job on the CV and might be useful for any IT jobs if I return to them to work for some financial companies in London. Most prop shops seem like scams.

 

[shadowninja]

Re reasonable time, people say it can take anything from 6 months to 2 years to finally get to a stage where you know what you're doing. Snag is, that doesn't mean that if you last 2 years without blowing up your account, you're any closer to being able to trade for a living. Nor does it mean that it won't take you longer (someone on T2W recently said it took them 3 years). Nor does it mean you won't suss it out in 1 month. One of the problems in the initial stages is knowing whether you just got lucky or not. I've seen enough people think they are the next Soros due to a lucky streak and then you hear them admitting that they have just got a job having lost a load. And then there is finding a system that works for you fairly early on but still trying other ideas because you're stubborn (that's me; can I have a year of my life back, please?). Snag is, as much as someone tells you that X is the way to trade and Y is going to lose you money, you will try Y as you won't believe them. It's only human nature. As one shouty coach says... keep your dukes up.

As for prop shops, it does sound like that, doesn't it. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there but I don't know which. Most seem to be selling a dream.

 

[SanMiguel]

Re reasonable time, people say it can take anything from 6 months to 2 years to finally get to a stage where you know what you're doing. Snag is, that doesn't mean that if you last 2 years without blowing up your account, you're any closer to being able to trade for a living. Nor does it mean that it won't take you longer (someone on T2W recently said it took them 3 years). Nor does it mean you won't suss it out in 1 month. One of the problems in the initial stages is knowing whether you just got lucky or not. I've seen enough people think they are the next Soros due to a lucky streak and then you hear them admitting that they have just got a job having lost a load. And then there is finding a system that works for you fairly early on but still trying other ideas because you're stubborn (that's me; can I have a year of my life back, please?). Snag is, as much as someone tells you that X is the way to trade and Y is going to lose you money, you will try Y as you won't believe them. It's only human nature. As one shouty coach says... keep your dukes up.

As for prop shops, it does sound like that, doesn't it. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there but I don't know which. Most seem to be selling a dream.

I can say this...that if I was more disciplined I would have made a decent amount already. The systems I use are profitable but I haven't been able to follow the rules consistently due to the pyschology of trading. That is something I am just getting to grips with. It's just such a risk to base a career decision on something I am not 100% about yet even though I think I could make it work. As you say, the numbers of it mean you can get lucky/unlucky, go through a good run, etc. TBH, what made me more consistent was not trying out 101 different systems even though that's also how I learnt most of my current technical analysis.

I don't believe telling a company that I spreadbetted for 18mths is going to look good if it doesn't work out. Using the recession as an excuse is a viable answer I suppose

Only reason I see a prop firm being good, is it's not your money at risk but then you have to pay them to "train" you and have a mentor.
If I got to the consistent stage, then any trading company would take you on with 2-3yrs consistent accounts. Equally, 2-3 years of consistent trading and I would have likely made a decent amount on compound interest trading.

 

[shadowninja]

I really am only going on what I hear about prop shops; no direct experience so cannot comment in detail.

WRT luck, luck only really comes into play at the start. If you're still relying on luck now, then I'd question whether you really are doing the right thing. The market is very organic so sometimes a trade works, other times it doesn't. You have to sometimes adjust how you trade to get the best out of a system/the market. Knowing when to stay away is nothing to do with luck, for instance. Knowing when your "good run" is over is nothing to do with luck but more about reading when the conditions are such that your system isn't working and so not taking a trade in a kind of coin flipping, lap of the gods way. Well, that's my take on it; I don't believe in luck. I don't think I'm lucky in trading. I didn't have proper beginner's luck when I started trading. Maybe that is lucky in itself!! I mostly lost money from the start with the occasional minor win.

Since you say you can't follow rules consistently, then you need to deal with this.

 

[SanMiguel]

Since you say you can't follow rules consistently, then you need to deal with this.

I can now, which is what turned the corner but it's only just started to happen.

 

[shadowninja]

Well, perhaps it's time to step it up. Obviously, it depends on the old probability and R/R thing. If you're 51% and 1/1 then you're pretty screwed and had better get a job but if things are more in your favour then why not push the old money management rules aside as you are going to either turn a decent profit or get a job fairly rapidly... I wouldn't normally recommend ignoring MM rules but it does depend on the system and circumstances. To clarify, if your system was 100% guaranteed to get you profit, then you can screw MM and put your whole house on the line. If it's 51% and 1/1 then you can't. Does that make sense?

 

[SanMiguel]

Well, perhaps it's time to step it up. Obviously, it depends on the old probability and R/R thing. If you're 51% and 1/1 then you're pretty screwed and had better get a job but if things are more in your favour then why not push the old money management rules aside as you are going to either turn a decent profit or get a job fairly rapidly... I wouldn't normally recommend ignoring MM rules but it does depend on the system and circumstances. To clarify, if your system was 100% guaranteed to get you profit, then you can screw MM and put your whole house on the line. If it's 51% and 1/1 then you can't. Does that make sense?

Absolutely depends on the R:R and more importantly, the max consecutive losses you expect your system to have. I've always wondered why some don't risk more and the max consecutive losses is the answer. It would be pretty mind ********* to lose 30% of your account, which is why people trade 2% risk usually but I see your point.

 

[shadowninja]

Well, like I say, if you risk 70% of your account and there's a 100% chance you'll make money, then...

 

[SanMiguel]

Well, like I say, if you risk 70% of your account and there's a 100% chance you'll make money, then...

Show me a system that will make money 100% of the time