Bund spoofing RIDICULOUS today

[readyaimfire]

Everyone in my office who trades the Bund has been complaining about this activity today.Heavy spoofing bid then offered in 500 to 1000 lots relentlessly all day.It's actually a bit pathetic.The spoofer never gets hit,all he does is screws with the market.A couple of guys here had been intending on making it their full-time contract but have now shelved the idea.

Eurex recently had a management change in their Bonds Dept. but why bother?Their share price has collapsed,their volumes in these products has collapsed.Yet still they just let people do exactly what they want.They really are clueless over there.

 

[Directional]

Rotter back in action, on a smaller scale? or some spoofy-algo?

 

[readyaimfire]

It feels like an algo actually,guys here are intra-contract spreading and keep getting awful fills,then flipped.I just don't understand what Eurex are doing,whoever it actually is,they are killing their business(what's left of it!!!!).Are they going to wait until the Bund is doing under 200K lots per day before they run the Exchange properly?It will be too late then,if it isn't already.

 

[arabianights]

Spread it with the gilt when he's doing it... Hardly any spoofing there today. Or just ignore him and let him get on with it.

 

[readyaimfire]

It's the guys using auto-spreaders that are getting carved up the most,it's just a waste of money when this kind of stuff goes on.I mean,without even trying to scalp the spread some of the fills I've heard of today have been appalling,literally 3-4 ticks away in bund from the intended price.Even looking for 10-15 ticks profit and not being guaranteed a fill on the exit trade just makes the whole thing a waste of time,especially when taking into account that not every trade will work.

I switched my auto-spreader off earlier but working them manually makes your eyes bleed and working a stop in the bunds when it's like a magic act - now you see me,now you don't,is just pointless.

The general feedback I'm getting from people,this Bund volume could go a LOT lower too........

 

[N Rothschild]

for those of us who dont trade bund etc, could you explain what your talking about?

 

[cr6196]

google search - the flipper/ paul rotter

 

[readyaimfire]

for those of us who dont trade bund etc, could you explain what your talking about?

If you don't trade the bund at the moment then save yourself time and money and don't even pursue it.It will never change on Eurex and so there is no future in trading the contract.At any time someone can turn up with a program/annoying tactic and cause havoc and basically ruin people's systems while the Exchange just look on.

Recently,volume in the bund has collapsed,many people blame this on their allegiance with algorithmic traders who decimated smaller human participants then had their plug pulled because they ran out of money in the crunch.

Bund is now bid and offered in between 25 and 300 lots as an average,so when someone,one day goes bid/offered throughout the day for probably 500 different 1000 lot clips but doesn't do ONE it makes a mockery of the market because there are those amongst us who are looking at the size in the market as if it were real and placing orders in other markets relying on the size actually being there,but it is without fail pulled as they are only shown to the market for 1-2 seconds.When this happens you stand a good chance of getting filled in one market,trying to hedge in the bund but they are quickly pulled and you have to sell at a much lower price.

Frankly it is a waste of time.Because of things like this,Eurex volumes only have one way to go.

 

[arabianights]

If it's any consolation whoever it is will probably getted wiped out making some stupid mistake, perhaps when germany's debt gets downgraded in Marchish

My honest recommendation is to try and work out what they're up to, then you can trade with them rather than against them

 

[readyaimfire]

Thanks for the advice.The problem that I have,which is the same problem everyone has here is that all I want to do is use the bund as a hedge and not second-guess what some idiot has designed a program to do.Guessing if the huge bid is fake or real is not what I call trading and if I'm working orders in other markets with a price point in mind in the bund then I can even handle occasionally some slippage but today someone has been taking each and every participant for a fool.

Eurex need human participation badly and with it proper liquidity,there are 10 of us currently trading the bunds in reasonable size day in,day out.Instead of doing more size,there's no doubt that tomorrow we'll be trading less.Maybe in a couple of weeks we won't be trading it altogether.Then they can phone up the guy who thought it was clever to spoof hundreds of different 1000 lot clips but not completing ANY and thank him for all his help.What I'm so disgusted by is that there is clearly something strange going on when someone behaves like this but they do nothing about it.

Let's hope,for their sake,that the people over at Eurex don't get paid in shares.

 

[MrGecko]

Out of interest, what are you hedging them against?

Had noticed it, but it doesn't really affect my trading. Agree that Eurex are c0cking it up, why they don't merge with LIFFE I cannot understand.

By the way - do you use TT?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/50190-x_trader-users.html#post623630

 

[readyaimfire]

I'm trading Bund/Bobl spread.Not scalping but taking positions.Sometimes I may only do 1 or 2 trades per day but in larger size and in cases like today where you get badly screwed over putting them on it's stupid giving up 100s of ticks in putting them on just because the bid is a spoof and flipped.It's no good doing the Bunds first either because the Bobl is so thin you can end up chasing 200 lots forever in there.We trade other markets and combinations too but it's a shame for something to come to an end because of what???Some person/program messing around and not even doing any trades.

Sorry,I do use TT and have done for many years but am a little embarrassed to say I don't know the answer to your question,I pretty much leave everything to our IT guys - note to self -must pay more attention!

 

[Directional]

come on, even when Rotter was flipping it, he was pushing the elasticity of the spread around to try and get locals offside for a tick or two, but the spoofing was always with a view to filling something he was working and the spoof was just to herd people into his orders. he was doing 10% of the bund vol at his peak, so regardless of pulling his spoofs, he was being filled on some size too.

I cant beleive someone is spoofing it just for a laugh. If you're giving up ticks, then it sounds like you're doing exactly what they want you to?

 

[Mpoufos]

eurex wont do anything to the spoofers/big boys they probably need them a lot more for providing liquidity than they would need all of us in t2win combined. they have received 10000000000 complaints before this thread. its not them that is killing volumes, have in mind we are in deep crisis and all prop desks in banks have become obsolete so take out the volume from there, take out all the hedge funds which means take out the hedges against the bund and all of the locals cutting down size to survive and there u have it.

 

[trader_dante]

I think the Bund is one of the easier markets to trade directionally...No idea why people hedge it...lol....oh well!

 

[Mpoufos]

most banks and hedge funds are obliged to hedge cant do otherwise

 

[Adamus]

How can an electronic market "control" spoofing? You mean by disciplining the trader doing it?

There must also be a more comprehensible reason why the trader's doing it. Could it be a cover for the real trading he's doing? If so, what kind of trading would benefit from the market being in the state it's in?

 

[readyaimfire]

Thanks for all the input guys.In keeping with 'adapt or die' I traded only 25% of usual volume on Eurex today and while there was still some spoofing,slippage was acceptable.It's actually had a positive effect because we've been working on another combination(not on Eurex) and went for it today by doubling our usual trading size and had the best day in months!!

Personally I don't go in for all these little games people try and play and I'm certainly not going to waste time trying to second-guess some algo to avoid slippage.That isn't trading,never was,never will be.

 

[readyaimfire]

I think the Bund is one of the easier markets to trade directionally...No idea why people hedge it...lol....oh well!

Arbitrageur,I noticed that you recommended this post.

If you have no idea why people hedge it,does this mean that you are,by definition,no longer an 'Arbitrageur'?

 

[Directional]

I was making a comment to TD via the rep system, rather than specifically endorsing the content of his post... like I just did for you