any futures for prop traders??

[amit_amik99]

Hi huys recently i called up a known recruitment firm NER asking them if they would be interested in my cv. My background , i am a spot fx trader trading for a prop firm in london. I was shocked that the guy said "in my experience of 5 years i have never placed a prop trader from arcade no one wants them" this has sent me alarm bells ringing about how the banks , funds and other investment houses percieve prop traders.

are there any prop traders out there who had success to switch from arcade to a better firm?:clap:

 

[rawrschach]

Strangely enough NER have an ad for a position in a prop firm on their site.

 

[amit_amik99]

yeah i checked asweell i am surprised . it says commison only package aswell so thats kinda scalper or prop trader job. strange .... but still i would like some genuine opinion from other experienced lots

 

[BoyTrader]

AA,

I find it unusual a prop trader will want to go and work at an IB the obvious sacrifice would be the profit share deal.. are you bored trading prop?

 

[John_Galt]

I don't find it unusual at all. How is staring at DOM or tick chart all day going to help you do anything useful at a bank?

Why would you invest in training some guy able to make a good income by himself (liable to leave) when you can pickup a genius grad with a big background in sports?

and if he isn't making good income then he's a dud and its just another reason not to take him.

maybe chances are better at HF which will employ your strategies given scalability.

 

[gooseman]

AA,

I find it unusual a prop trader will want to go and work at an IB the obvious sacrifice would be the profit share deal.. are you bored trading prop?

think about the implications of a blow up.

at a bank you can (used to be able) to swing the bat a bit. if it goes well happy days you get 10-15%. If it goes wrong bank takes the loss and you may/may not get canned.

blow up in a prop shop with your own money and it's goodnight vienna.

plus there is the ability to access all sorts of markets a prop guy never sees-OTC markets, sheer volumes, market makiing, flow info, research. the list is endless...

 

[Parky]

This would be a backward step to my mind. Most successful traders want to get out of Banks and institutions where they have salaries and discretionary bonuses and get to somewhere were they get the full benefit of their trading. If you are any good you want to get to a stage where you keep 100% of what you earn. Why would you want to go the other way? There are trading rooms that are more than happy to give additional leverage to traders and we are picking up people from banks who have been knocked on their bonuses with great track records who are itching to get into an environment where they work for themselves and get the rewards for their endeavors. The only people staying at Banks are those that cannot make money, to want to get into that environment at this stage would set alarms ringing!
The implications of a blow up are exactly why Banks will not entertain this type of trading, if you cannot manage your losses and live to fight another day then the Banks are quite right to turn you away. Risk management is as important as profitability.

 

[metals_trader]

and we are picking up people from banks as profitability.

and who is "we" or is that kept hush hush

 

[Parky]

I prefer not to advertise or act like a recruiting sergeant unlike some, to my mind this site is more of an information exchange.
However if anyone wants to know more they can always send me a private message and we can arrange a meeting or discuss points over the phone.

 

[PualoP]

Remember that there is a whole sliding scale of prop firms,

1) The 'arcade' types like Marex, Schneider and Futex scalping futures at the bottom.
2) The market makers like Tibra, Mako, Liquid in the middle.
3) The fund type firms like Knight Capital and D E Shaw at the top.

Unfortunately type 1) firms are not considered 'real' prop firms and having one of these on your CV will make it virtually impossible to get a front office role in a bank. The business model of these firms is to earn commission on high volume, not proprietary trading profits. Hence you will often hear them refereed to as bucket shops ala 'Remeniscenses of a stock operator' style.

Types 2) and 3) firms are considered real proprietary firms because the business model is that you actually trade firm capital with the sole intent of making money. The traders here are employees and are usually ex-bank looking for a bigger slice of the profit.

When you see adverts for 'prop' traders they mean people who have had proprietary trading experience at a bank or have worked at a type 2) or 3) firm. It's a given that candidates from bucket shops need not apply.

Don't get me wrong, the arcades are great places if that's your style of trading but there is a glass ceiling when it comes to moving 'up the ladder'.

 

[police]

I TRUST THAT ANYONE WHO READS THE POST ABOVE BY PualoP WILL REALISE THAT IT IS INCORRECT IN SEVERAL ASPECTS - i will refrain from getting involved in a never ending argument with PualoP but the reader should ubderstand that this "summary "of market participation is highly inaccurate

 

[PualoP]

Ok, I'm not looking for an argument and promise I will not reply any more to this thread but for the interest of this board and anyone reading this thread you should at least state your opinion of why it's incorrect?

 

[John_Galt]

Unfortunately type 1) The business model of these firms is to earn commission on high volume, not proprietary trading profits.

I was under the impression that these firms also have the option of backing you 100%, I know of a local firm here with some connections to Futex doing exactly that - in-fact there is no option, you are fully backed or you go away.

Anyway I don't think its relevant whether you come from what you define as a "real prop shop" (anyone making a market) vs an arcade - if someone is able to make ****loads of money on a scalable strategy who gives a **** where he comes from?

and if you want to go work in a front-office or do some analyst type job unrelated to your trading strategies then obviously a bank would prefer someone from a more corporate background.

 

[John_Galt]

also bucket shops are called that cas they "bucket" your positions and are basically trading against you. at least thats what i thought. traders bunching together and getting access to cheaper commissions and economies of scale has nothing to do with this.

DUBAIPTG is a bucket shop lol.

 

[RogueTrader888888]

Prop trading is both the best job in the world and the worst job, depending if your making money or not. The people who are just getting by and paying for costs are probably wasting their time if they have been doing it for a while.

Let's face it, to be a good trader usually takes over one year and firms are completely unrealistic in that they expect traders to get by without a salary for one year (and not to mention lose opportunity income, have no career progression within the industry, learn no transferable skills unless one wishes to become a poker player and get frustrated as hell). Also, firms act all snobbish like its THEM that are doing traders a favour. Firms charge outrageous ridiculous charges for using a desk???? £550 a month for a desk?? and commission on top of roundtrips THEN they take a cut of profits.

Worse of all is that if you're fully backed, you are completely at the mercy of management who may just get bored of you and get rid of you or offer an ultimatum because they want to see that desk space filled up by some sacked ex ib trader with deep pockets. Doesnt matter if you have potential, its just a reality that unless you make money day in and day out, u will not make it in this business. Fair enough but, markets are extremely difficult and its so easy to get stopped out at any given day and then u have to make what u lost two days in a roll to get on the right track.

As for ib traders who want to go prop, they are probably wasting their time as its much better to keep on earning fixed salary and bonus than risk it at a prop firm. Moreover, the traders who dont make it in ib banks are probably pathetic since they trade much bigger size and much more focused desk-wide strategies (not to mention they desk shares all the profits) so they would probably never cut it scalping away without even the help of an analyst!

As for moving from prop to IB bank its possible but requires some clever "manipulation" of the CV and learning of the OTC products of ibs. I have many friends that have made the move.

 

[BoyTrader]

This would be a backward step to my mind. Most successful traders want to get out of Banks and institutions where they have salaries and discretionary bonuses and get to somewhere were they get the full benefit of their trading. If you are any good you want to get to a stage where you keep 100% of what you earn. Why would you want to go the other way? There are trading rooms that are more than happy to give additional leverage to traders and we are picking up people from banks who have been knocked on their bonuses with great track records who are itching to get into an environment where they work for themselves and get the rewards for their endeavors. The only people staying at Banks are those that cannot make money, to want to get into that environment at this stage would set alarms ringing!
The implications of a blow up are exactly why Banks will not entertain this type of trading, if you cannot manage your losses and live to fight another day then the Banks are quite right to turn you away. Risk management is as important as profitability.

Completely agree with this post.

I have been in IB since the beginning of my career although Front Office 3 years, no profit split but discretionary bonus (typical IB package). IB grants size only after you prove consistency which I guess is the same as any decent prop outfit that lets you build up your account. It's a given IB allow a higher risk profile but this defeats any induvidual's risk management regime! respect to prop traders that use tight stops and stick to their plan.

Yes you get exposure to client flow, learn complex derivatives structures package them together & sell them onto unsuspecting customers but it all gets boring once you know how it works there's nothing else left apart from thinking about youself & what you want from life.

To be honest I have had enough of IB with their snotty cuture, 6.30am - 9pm days day in day out, business model rules blah blah blah....... prop trading in my opinion (not there yet) provides a bit of freedom once you get a decent account and when you are established you run things pretty much how you want. So in my opinion IB to prop is a forward move but prop to IB not so much so........but it all depends what your induvidual goals are!?!

 

[r4jen]

Basically trying to get a job in a bank after being a prop trader, is sort of a sign of failure, and the first thing that they would ask is why would you want to work at a bank.
The common perceptions banks have of prop traders is that they are much less formal, and so look down upon that.
The ways i have found out that you can transfer across is mainly by saying that you need stability, your prop companies vision for the future is not appealing. But this would be good for back office and middle office at best.

 

[DaxDestroyer]

If a trader produces money on a consistent basis, then there is no need to work for a bank.

 

[amit_amik99]

recruitment firm

i just wanted an opinion as i was thinking about position trading rather than scalping equities

 

[Skill Leverage]

Remember that there is a whole sliding scale of prop firms,

1) The 'arcade' types like Marex, Schneider and Futex scalping futures at the bottom.
2) The market makers like Tibra, Mako, Liquid in the middle.
3) The fund type firms like Knight Capital and D E Shaw at the top.

Could you elaborate on this a little, as it appears to make absolutely no sense whatsoever.