All that isnt method, especially TiTZ.

[malaguti]

Please tell me that you typed the bit in bold because you high or drunk!
I dont feel inferior to anyone mate. Im secure in my method. Doesnt change the fact im trading scared tho. I can delude myself, or i can investigate.
I could stay pat, not progress and continue to use my method and mindset.
or i can improve and make a slight change to a part of my method and tweek my mindset.

I prefer the second option

now you missed my point:
earlier you said that you believe that most people are the Bob's in this world, curious of Newtons bold stats. I'm giving you a real life case.
You have just answered my point..that the Bob/Newton analogy is a false one

Now lets move on..you are secure in your method. But you are scared.
Thats a contradiction. You said that you made lots of mistakes, that suggests you actually dont have a method or you are not sure just how good that method is. Ie have you backtested this? whats your stats like? are you trading your method, or are you now just testing your method.
we go back to LVs quote, "knowledge in your method" how well do you really know this method?

 

[Forexmospherian]

Please tell me that you typed the bit in bold because you high or drunk!
I dont feel inferior to anyone mate. Im secure in my method. Doesnt change the fact im trading scared tho. I can delude myself, or i can investigate.
I could stay pat, not progress and continue to use my method and mindset.
or i can improve and make a slight change to a part of my method and tweek my mindset.

I prefer the second option

Hi Guys

Well to be honest - even after 13800+ live trades - I am still trading scared - but nothing like as scared as I used to be with 15-20+ lots 4 years ago when I had not done half as many trades.

That's where LV's "Confidence comes with Knowledge" saying come in to being - I have enough stats behind me to give me some comfort and having dropped the lot size's down - I can now scalp without the heartbeat going over 90 - never mind 120 bpm plus ;-)

Even the most talented stage actors or top athletes/ sports person can suffer "stage fright" or nervous tension before doing "their thing" but that can make them perform better.

If I go mad trading on a demo - I don't necessary make more pips - as I am not in my own "trading zone" as I know I perform better with pressure - but not that much that "blurs" my mind

Find your own "zone" - at what ever level and then remember - practice - practice - practice will not make you a perfect trader - but it will make you better

Regards

F

 

[Splitlink]

To me, Dark Tone and FX are two very different persons because of their writing styles. but I am not a psychologist.

 

[DionysusToast]

Anyone that follows English International football will know about the fact that you can be good at something but choke when it comes down to competitive endeavor.

The words "Penalty shoot out" should send a shiver down any Englishmans spine.

You really think Beckham can't hit a ball in the back of a net with close to 100% accuracy when not under pressure?

 

[Liquid validity]

Anyone that follows English International football will know about the fact that you can be good at something but choke when it comes down to competitive endeavor.

The words "Penalty shoot out" should send a shiver down any Englishmans spine.

You really think Beckham can't hit a ball in the back of a net with close to 100% accuracy when not under pressure?

Yeah thats a valid point regarding sport.
In that situation, an individual instance is important - the goal.
Maybe others see it different, but to me an individual trade does
not have the same importance.
In fact I expect every trade to lose as a way of removing as much
pressure as you can at an individual trade level.

Longer term performance is another issue though.
In my case, since inception my automation has delivered roughly 100% ROI
over 27 months (no compound).
Accepting drawdown or no progress is something you have to accept with
what I currently do.

That isn't the issue for me.
The main factor stems from this thread:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex/178822-eurusd-session-activity.html
That was when I started to question whether I had made a mistake
in handling protracted high / low volatility periods.
I'm now inclined to believe I have.
Basically, in its current form, my code performs better in higher volatility conditions.

Thats why I am now questioning it.
Its not a psych issue for me personally.
Its purely stats analysis that makes me reconsider.
Obviously everyone is different, so really, everything in this thread that
I have said is just personal opinion as it applies to me.

 

[darktone]

now you missed my point:
earlier you said that you believe that most people are the Bob's in this world, curious of Newtons bold stats. I'm giving you a real life case.
You have just answered my point..that the Bob/Newton analogy is a false one

I actually said "I put Bobs reaction in there as a general stab of what most folks might likely think and feel" But in part i think youre right, Ive added edits at the bottom of the example.
Re false analogy: I dont think its false at all. in fact it can be anything we choose if we leave Bobs final thought and beliefs flexible.

Now lets move on..you are secure in your method. But you are scared.
Thats a contradiction. You said that you made lots of mistakes, that suggests you actually dont have a method or you are not sure just how good that method is. Ie have you backtested this? whats your stats like? are you trading your method, or are you now just testing your method.
we go back to LVs quote, "knowledge in your method" how well do you really know this method?

Its only a contradiction to you because your beliefs are in the vein of "if im confident in my method psychology will follow" or "All i need is 'knowledge' in my method". Your welcome to view my efforts re my method here
Re me trading scared: Trading in public magnified the situation for me and as a result i made many more mistakes than norm. After investigating further and reading TiTZ it became apparent that my fears extended beyond public performance. In short, i see how i enter as fearful.

 

[malaguti]

After investigating further and reading TiTZ it became apparent that my fears extended beyond public performance. In short, i see how i enter as fearful.

So after reading TiTZ, how has the book overcome these fears for you?

 

[darktone]

Originally Posted by PieterSteidelmayer
Two characters stand out as being very similar - DarkTone and Forexmospherian. Both like to talk a lot, but say nothing.

Riiight :|. Mind you, by that same metric i suppose i could be you then.

To me, Dark Tone and FX are two very different persons because of their writing styles. but I am not a psychologist.

The uncommon sense award goes to you split, cheers

 

[darktone]

So after reading TiTZ, how has the book overcome these fears for you?

Cant say ive overcome them mal but im working on them.
Below is a top of my head sum up.
1) Anything can happen, each moment is unique.
2) Distribution of w/l is random, now has nothing to do with my last trade/s
3) Fully accepting the risk

Edit: bit short on time today

 

[malaguti]

well, mate I'll say I'm sorry about your emotional pain

but if we go back to thread, and I'll start with a quote from another thread first:

My problem with the book, other than the fact that I'm with cablemonster jr, is that it talks about the psychology but does nothing in my view with regard to practically helping you overcome these demons.

Now I'll quote your demon

But i learnt something from the experience, I learnt to my surprise, imo im trading scared.

So after reading TiTZ, how has the book overcome these fears for you?

Cant say ive overcome them mal but im working on them.

ergo, reading trading in the Zone.....
I rest my case your honour

 

[darktone]

ergo, reading trading in the Zone.....
I rest my case your honour

haha, I put it to you sir that you are a prisoner of your beliefs.
I wouldnt call it emotional pain as so much as an exciting opportunity to learn

 

[malaguti]

haha, I put it to you sir that you are a prisoner of your beliefs.
I wouldnt call it emotional pain as so much as an exciting opportunity to learn

perhaps my friend, but you know what i wont be reading to change my belief system

 

[darktone]

Ok, so lets go back to the Bob and Twangler example.
The basic gist being that Bobs method is much less effective than Twanglers but as mal rightly suggestes, its wrong to fix Bob with an opinion on that as we dont know what Bobs strongest beliefs are.
Heres where we can play with it. Lets give Bob some optional strongest beliefs:-
1) Am smarter than 99% of folk, next to me they are dunces.
2) Change isnt good
3) Power is learning and improving myself
4) Facts are power

What would you do where in Bobs position?
Personally, as much as I dislike Twanglers attitude, id want to investigate his method to see if there is anything I could use to improve or even replace my own (ie if it stopped me in my tracks and forced me to revaluate).

I get the gist from this Mal would say to hell Twangler and stick with Bobs method. (correct me if not tho mate)

 

[darktone]

perhaps my friend, but you know what i wont be reading to change my belief system

I think i might have an idea

 

[darktone]

Ok, so lets go back to the Bob and Twangler example.
The basic gist being that Bobs method is much less effective than Twanglers but as mal rightly suggestes, its wrong to fix Bob with an opinion on that as we dont know what Bobs strongest beliefs are.
Heres where we can play with it. Lets give Bob some optional strongest beliefs:-
1) Am smarter than 99% of folk, next to me they are dunces.
2) Change isnt good
3) Power is learning and improving myself
4) Facts are power

Heres what id suggest Bob might do in each scenario
1) "Am smarter than 99% of folk, next to me they are dunces."
In this scenario its quite possible that Bob would focus on all reasons to dismiss Twanglers method as rubbish. How can it be anything but, Twangler is obviously a dunce.
= Bob is highly likely to dismiss an opportunity to learn something

2) "Change isnt good."
Even if Bob had other beliefs that support change or learning, they are still likely to trumped if 'Change isnt good' is the Main/Primary belief.
= Bob may miss an opportunity to learn something

3) Power is learning and improving myself
With a belief like that, Bob would very likely press Twangler for the low down on the method.
= Bob seizes the opportunity to investigate and possibly improve

4) Facts are power
Again, its a fact that Twanglers method is better. Likely that the Bob would want to investigate these facts.
= Bob seizes the opportunity to investigate


The above scenarios are all very subjective and they dont include another very important element. Motivation
Even so, my aim is to show that the avenues open to Bob are governed at least in part by what he believes. In this particular example,a couple of the beliefs could actively prevent Bob from improving his Method.

 

[darktone]

Yeah thats a valid point regarding sport.
In that situation, an individual instance is important - the goal.
Maybe others see it different, but to me an individual trade does
not have the same importance.

I think others can certainly see it different and attach an unrealistic importance/expectations to a trade. Its alls very individual eh.
Re the penalty. Im sure a good mindset plays a huge role in the outcome, Give the same player one of the two thoughts below as he steps up. Im sure over any sample size the results would be very different.
1) "I accept this the cup final but its just another penalty man."
2) "Its the final! I cant f**kup like last time!! Be all my fault if we lose!"

Holds true to trading imo. Its a shame we cant have 'task manger' for our brains

In fact I expect every trade to lose as a way of removing as much
pressure as you can at an individual trade level.

I want to be in a mental place where there is no pressure, and I think its possible.

Longer term performance is another issue though.
In my case, since inception my automation has delivered roughly 100% ROI
over 27 months (no compound).
Accepting drawdown or no progress is something you have to accept with
what I currently do.

Makes sense to me mate.

That isn't the issue for me.
The main factor stems from this thread:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex/178822-eurusd-session-activity.html
That was when I started to question whether I had made a mistake
in handling protracted high / low volatility periods.
I'm now inclined to believe I have.
Basically, in its current form, my code performs better in higher volatility conditions.

Tbh, im no number cruncher, but from that I take that youve looked at the performance and are considering changing things a little, maybe by dropping or decreasing exposure to the low vol side. That in itself requires you have the pyshc.
1) Acknowledging the mistake (most folks dont like to do that)
2) Accepting that you can be wrong.
3) Having the courage to make changes based on what you see to be true.

Thats why I am now questioning it.
Its not a psych issue for me personally.
Its purely stats analysis that makes me reconsider.

I understand what youre saying and i agree that you dont seem to have a problem on the execution side, you got that sewn up. However bad psych could hinder the development of your method.
Lets say you were in Bobs position and Twangler showed you the fact that his system is way ahead, then tells you it 'adds to losers' and uses no stops. You might not investigate further if you had existing strong beliefs like never add to losers/always use stops.

Obviously everyone is different, so really, everything in this thread that
I have said is just personal opinion as it applies to me.

For sure mate, me to. Just our own personal opinions based on our experience and what weve learned to believe.

 

[Liquid validity]

I think others can certainly see it different and attach an unrealistic importance/expectations to a trade. Its alls very individual eh.
Re the penalty. Im sure a good mindset plays a huge role in the outcome, Give the same player one of the two thoughts below as he steps up. Im sure over any sample size the results would be very different.
1) "I accept this the cup final but its just another penalty man."
2) "Its the final! I cant f**kup like last time!! Be all my fault if we lose!"

Yeah, sort of agree, in principle at least.
It depends on whether you are convincing yourself you don't care,
or genuinely do not care at all.

To not care at all, the consequences of failure must genuinely be insignificant.
I'm not so much talking about a per trade basis.
The above example you've used and Toast brought up, for me is more applicable
to being close to max tolerated drawdown or outright method failure.

I want to be in a mental place where there is no pressure, and I think its possible.

Maybe it is possible for some, for me, no.
You can have coping mechanisms and visual aids (post its etc.) to deal with the pressure.
I'm not personally sure you can ever remove it though.
The only way I see that is possible is if trading is just a sideline or hobby.

In any other instance, own account, prop or IB - your income is dependent on
results.
I definitely think you can learn to deal with it, but I don't think it ever goes away.

Tbh, im no number cruncher, but from that I take that youve looked at the performance and are considering changing things a little, maybe by dropping or decreasing exposure to the low vol side. That in itself requires you have the pyshc.
1) Acknowledging the mistake (most folks dont like to do that)
2) Accepting that you can be wrong.
3) Having the courage to make changes based on what you see to be true.

I understand what youre saying and i agree that you dont seem to have a problem on the execution side, you got that sewn up. However bad psych could hinder the development of your method.
Lets say you were in Bobs position and Twangler showed you the fact that his system is way ahead, then tells you it 'adds to losers' and uses no stops. You might not investigate further if you had existing strong beliefs like never add to losers/always use stops.

Yeah pretty much agree with that.
Execution is not really an issue with automation as you expect it to take
a fair few dumb trades anyway.

TBH for passive income, its still ok (beats rental yield easily, albeit with increased risk)
and still within the parameters of failure.
Really the main problem for me is not so much the performance or me.
The current mediocre spell is not out of bounds of anything that was tested.
Its more annoyance that I can't code in the additional features that I know
would improve it, whilst at the same time enduring a sh1tty patch.

 

[darktone]

Yeah, sort of agree, in principle at least.
It depends on whether you are convincing yourself you don't care,
or genuinely do not care at all.

To not care at all, the consequences of failure must genuinely be insignificant.
I'm not so much talking about a per trade basis.
The above example you've used and Toast brought up, for me is more applicable
to being close to max tolerated drawdown or outright method failure.

I know what you mean. Defo a different situation next to a single trade.
Edit: I think its more about identifying and accepting the situation, rather than trying convince yourself per say.

2) "Its the final! I cant f**kup like last time!! Be all my fault if we lose!"

To me though there is some obvious distortions in thought 2. A reasonable retort might go something like this

Distorted thought:
"Its the final! I cant f**kup like last time!! Be all my fault if we lose!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contest to the thought:
Well its is a big occasion for sure being the final, but you can bet everyone is behind you and willing you to put that ball in the back of the net.
Whats all this 'f**kup like last time' stuff? You mean you missed a penalty before? Big deal, what player doesnt miss the occasional penalty and what does last time have to do with right now? I mean it doesnt make an sense to only focus on your last miss, If you insist on looking at the past then wouldnt it make more sense to look at the whole picture, one that includes the 90% of penalties youve put away?
It will be all you fault will it!? So i suppose the rest of the team had nothing to do with not winning the game and ending up here, in a penalty shoot out. Thats just a nonsense.

Or something like that .

Maybe it is possible for some, for me, no.
You can have coping mechanisms and visual aids (post its etc.) to deal with the pressure.
I'm not personally sure you can ever remove it though.
The only way I see that is possible is if trading is just a sideline or hobby.

In any other instance, own account, prop or IB - your income is dependent on
results.
I definitely think you can learn to deal with it, but I don't think it ever goes away.

I totally get where youre coming from, i guess that would be covered in really accepting what youre doing.
The bit that stands out to me tho is this 'Maybe it is possible for some, for me, no.'
What youve effectively told yourself is you cant. By doing that you have made it real/true for yourself. If you really believe that you cant do something, then you cant.
Also, how true is this view? I mean if we told Jimmy Balodimas thats its all but impossible to trade without fear im sure wed get a chuckle. This guy will fade anything, adds to losers / no stops and not bat an eyelid. Most of us would consider this as ballsy or plain stupid, im pretty sure thats not how hed see it.

Im gona do another quick example that i hope will show better what i mean.

 

[darktone]

dancer example:-
A young guy (20ish) looks out over the dance eyeing the ladies, wishes he could dance, but he cant dance.

>15 years
15 years of life has speed past. He still cant dance. He achieves this by not dancing, telling himself he cant dance, telling others he cant dance who in turn tell him in jest that he cant dance, but he doesnt receive it that way, its just confirmation of the fact that he cant dance.
Until one day he is motivated to go to a dance class. Even though he cant dance.
Dance class 1) Lots of people there, all dancers, not like him. It ranks as one of the most painful experiences of his life.
Dance class 2) At least he knows what to expect this time. After class he makes for the door but is grabbed by a taxi dancer, to practice in the freestyle . Being dragged to the floor like a man condemned, hes forced to move. Terror gives way a little as he steps. "Im dancing "-"but you cant dance! "--"But i am dancing! "--"But you dont dance, you cant dance!"---"But I am dancing! and i kinda frickin like it! "
He goes home a changed man.

>5 or so years
Hes as confident on the dance floor as he is on the pavement. "Im a dancer! "
Judging by the unsolicited compliments he gets a hes a pretty good dancer, maybe even a very good dancer.

 

[darktone]

In the dancer example, the man defeats himself for 15 years with the belief that he cant dance, this belief is so strong that he wont risk anything for trying.
He hast allowed himself to find out how competent a dancer he can be.

That is until one day he finds a motivation. The motivation is so strong as to overcome his fear of dancin, well at least enough to get him to a dance class.

As he begins to progress, slowly step by step he finds that he can actually dance and the belief 'I cant dance' is gradually replaced with others like 'i can kinda dance' 'i like to dance'. The man is unaware of whats happening to himself psychologically as he just doesnt know about that stuff, but its kinda hard for anyone to go on believing that they cant do something when they actually doing it. The process in this case was natural.