Alan Rich new scanner

[Liquid validity]

Am I the only person here that does not see trading as a mechanical endeavour?
I doubt that.
Its also a perfectly valid view.

All this talk about 'selling an edge' mystifies me completely. It's as if people think that an edge is a set of fixed rules.
Depends what those rules are, and more importantly what they are based on.

To me, the edge is experience. You couldn't give it away for free, even if you tried to. It really doesn't matter if you tell people what you do because the chances are extremely high that someone would try to follow what you do and give up after 2 days of being crap at it.
Agree to an extent, my view is why take the chance when there is no need to do so.

My only criteria for getting into a trade is that I don't think it's going to bite me in the ass and 'loose' me money. I'll take those all day, even if sometimes it just means I end up paying commissions on them. or making 4 ticks before the market turns around on me.
Agree again.
There is no way a mechanical system can possibly aim to do that.
All you can do with a mechanical method is control your risk,
unless you use discretion for entries and exits.

The skill is in not losing your shirt. This is the only thing you are in control of. The profits you make come down to luck in the end. The amount of profits is beyond your control.
That applies to any form of trading, that is the basic foundation.

On ARs site, he's selling some indicator that let's you just sit back, wait for the colour to change and enter a trade.
Agree with that.

This sort of stuff is pure fantasy. The issue is not "if you had something like that, why would you sell it?".
Don't agree there, it makes no sense to sell it.

The issue is that stuff like that doesn't work at all.
Agree again, stuff that is sold is sold to make money from the sales.
If it worked you would make more by trading it.

If Alan can trade, then he's really throwing away his reputation with this crap IMO. Then again, reputation is something you can play around with in this industry because there is a constant stream of newbies that are fed the idea that trading is a mechanical endeavour.
Agree again, they are cashing in on the quick fix mentality.

As far as mechanical trading not working at all.
It entirely depends on the implementation.
The turtles and countless others prove it is possible.

By that rationale, do you imply that discretionary trading must therefore work for everybody?
I know you don't think that.
Its purely about what an individual brings to the table, nothing more.

Your edge is experience and market reading skills.
What you are talking about is probably but not automatically more likely
to last in the long term.

It would be foolish to suggest a mechanical edge can be the same.
By it very nature it can fail at any time.
If you take steps to guard againt that as much as possible, drawdown
or periods of treading water are inevitably longer and deeper, than with purely discretionary.
If you accept and understand that, it then becomes nothing more than
personal choice.

I just don't buy into the notion that one method is better than another.
In terms of efficiency and returns, it is undoubtedly true.

In terms of implementation on a persoanl level, everyone is different.
In that case the most efficient method is the one that suits you.

 

[The Leopard]

Does anyone want to refute part or all of this?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/152942-alan-rich-new-scanner-24.html#post1905444

I know Jon has replied, but that reply was to do with educators. Specifically with regard to signal sellers and system vendors, does anyone have anything to say in opposition to what I wrote?

If not, I'll move on to educators and trainers - defending my assertion that it is logical to tar them all with the same brush.

 

[rsh01]

Does anyone want to refute part or all of this?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/152942-alan-rich-new-scanner-24.html#post1905444

I know Jon has replied, but that reply was to do with educators. Specifically with regard to signal sellers and system vendors, does anyone have anything to say in opposition to what I wrote?

If not, I'll move on to educators and trainers - defending my assertion that it is logical to tar them all with the same brush.

I will play devils advocate if you don't mind.

As we know there's a lot more to being successful at trading than just knowing when to enter the market, but I did suggest on another thread that (purely for discussion purposes) perhaps that cld be a motivation for becoming an SP.....they lack the MM, discipline et al to act properly on their own calls. So its easier (less risky) to sell the calls, than it wld be to trade them. The pay off for no risk is less profit. I also added to argue my own point though that its unlikely this is the case, as anyone who had the experience to be able to be fairly accurate in calling trades is unlikely to have gone through this period without at least improving their MM skills to a level which wld make their strategy profitable. It wld take years (developing / testing strategy) to know your calls are accurate, so this time I wld think wld also allow for personal devt in the other key areas.

Interesting to hear other views on this.

 

[new_trader]

Specifically with regard to signal sellers and system vendors, does anyone have anything to say in opposition to what I wrote?

I haven't got time now because I'm at Heathrow Airport just about to board my plane - Virgin (Executive Upper class with jacuzzi and Xbox360). I'm flying to the Isle of Wight to soak up some sun...Enjoy rainy Britain...losser!

 

[BeginnerJoe]

I really couldn't care less about consecutive losers.

Then start calling them out. You have nothing to worry about. I am not asking here for your technique, just one liners on some trades to see if you are able to turn a profit as you claim.

joe

"not sure" - "can't" that's a bit contradictory Just cast around , maybe the ftse thread, and you'll find some.

So what's a "good call" anyway? Something that sets off in the right direction? So what - as I said in my reply to toastie above, that's just the start of it and does damn all to demonstrate if someone is a good trader or not.

jon

Ok, can I have a link to the ftse thread ? I will observe your calls and come to a conclusion.

A good call to me is the ability to make a call, or a series of calls that result in a profit on a trading statement. A call starting in the right direction would be a brilliant start. If you are able to demonstrate most of your trades start that way, I'd give extra . But I can predict, even though I have not seen any of your trades, less than 50% of your trades start that way. In fact I will concede my argument if you just demonstrate this last point because 50% is a statistically significant figure.

 

[VielGeld]

I haven't got time now because I'm at Heathrow Airport just about to board my plane - Virgin (Executive Upper class with jacuzzi and Xbox360). I'm flying to the Isle of Wight to soak up some sun...Enjoy rainy Britain...losser!

That's some ****ty service you got...

We all know Ps3 > 360.

Then start calling them out. You have nothing to worry about. I am not asking here for your technique, just one liners on some trades to see if you are able to turn a profit as you claim.

Well, knowing Hare, this is not really doable.

See, the thing is that Hare will post these calls in a random thread at random times, and perhaps even on a random trading-related forum. You might be able to randomly happen upon one such call at any random point in the future, but there's no way to tell if the call was fake or not because of the random timestamp.

Finally, you can't know if the call was profitable or not because of quantum entanglement or something. Might as well just flip a coin for all the good it does to ask this of Hare!

 

[The Leopard]

I will play devils advocate if you don't mind.

As we know there's a lot more to being successful at trading than just knowing when to enter the market, but I did suggest on another thread that (purely for discussion purposes) perhaps that cld be a motivation for becoming an SP.....they lack the MM, discipline et al to act properly on their own calls. So its easier (less risky) to sell the calls, than it wld be to trade them. The pay off for no risk is less profit. I also added to argue my own point though that its unlikely this is the case, as anyone who had the experience to be able to be fairly accurate in calling trades is unlikely to have gone through this period without at least improving their MM skills to a level which wld make their strategy profitable. It wld take years (developing / testing strategy) to know your calls are accurate, so this time I wld think wld also allow for personal devt in the other key areas.

Interesting to hear other views on this.

Thank you for the input.

I don't think this invalidates my original proposal for a couple of reasons:

1. The reason you kindly supplied above. It is hard to imagine someone developing a system or competent to make calls not being able to overcome their difficulties when faced with the evidence and the tantalising prospect of riches so close at hand.

2. What if they genuinely were unable to do so? What would they do? Sell signals for £25 a month or their system for a few hundred? It would make much more sense to employ someone to trade for them - surely not difficult to find an experienced trader willing to do so on a profit-sharing basis? Or sell their signals / systems to a large financial institution - if they were a tenth as profitable as most claim to be, they would be falling all over themselves to get hold of these treasures.

Whatever the case, the way forward would not be to flog these priceless things to any random punter for a pittance.

3. Can anyone give an example of any system seller / signal provider making such a claim (that their product works but they are unable to use it successfully themselves)? I am not - usually quite the opposite in fact. They all seem to claim to trade very successfully in their own right. So even if it were the case, they are being fraudulent in their advertising (unless someone can provide an example of course).

I think the universal tarring still seems logical.

 

[rsh01]

Then start calling them out.

Eh...you want him to call out his random entries? Do it yourself, flip a coin, you lazy git.

 

[rsh01]

3. Can anyone give an example of any system seller / signal provider making such a claim (that their product works but they are unable to use it successfully themselves)? I am not - usually quite the opposite in fact. They all seem to claim to trade very successfully in their own right. So even if it were the case, they are being fraudulent in their advertising (unless someone can provide an example of course).

Agree with your points, did think of the above, and no never heard one say that.

 

[DionysusToast]

Does anyone want to refute part or all of this?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/152942-alan-rich-new-scanner-24.html#post1905444

I know Jon has replied, but that reply was to do with educators. Specifically with regard to signal sellers and system vendors, does anyone have anything to say in opposition to what I wrote?

If not, I'll move on to educators and trainers - defending my assertion that it is logical to tar them all with the same brush.

Considering the amount of charlatans compared with decent guys, I agree.

I still think trading is a skill though. In my book, an edge cannot be taught.

It's a bit like Daley Thompson selling a course on "How to become an Olympic decathlon medal winner". You'd know the guy could perform but you'd also understand he'd not be able to get you to the Olympics through a course.

With trading, people don't know enough about it to make the distinction.

 

[Joules MM1]

In my book, an edge cannot be taught.

say it aint so........say you aints goin there........DT, author.....

a freindly freudian?

 

[DionysusToast]

say it aint so........say you aints goin there........DT, author.....

a freindly freudian?

lol...

You can lead a horse to water...

...but you can't stop him plotting a moving average on the past 5 days water levels to figure out where to stick his tongue...

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Eh...you want him to call out his random entries? Do it yourself, flip a coin, you lazy git.

Yes, I want a demonstration from the hare with his moving average cross over coin flipping entry system. I want to see how that is superior to baghdaddy's strategy.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

In my book, an edge cannot be taught.

Let's put this theory to the test. Teach me your 'edge' and we will see if it can be taught.

 

[neil]

Let's put this theory to the test. Teach me your 'edge' and we will see if it can be taught.

Why don't you work at getting your own rather than trying to get others to hand over their hard earned skills.

 

[barjon]

.............I think the universal tarring still seems logical........

I thought we'd moved slightly away from that as far as educators are concerned

I think the sort of scenario painted by rsh is possible, but unlikely, so I think you've probably made your case. With the proviso that there's a difference between the straight signal/system guys and those offering a methodology.

 

[the hare]

Yes, I want a demonstration from the hare with his moving average cross over coin flipping entry system. I want to see how that is superior to baghdaddy's strategy.

Its superior in practically every way, but it doesn't use moving averages

you just need the coin, oh and a functioning brain

 

[The Leopard]

I thought we'd moved slightly away from that as far as educators are concerned

I think the sort of scenario painted by rsh is possible, but unlikely, so I think you've probably made your case. With the proviso that there's a difference between the straight signal/system guys and those offering a methodology.

Certainly, the two types should be viewed separately. I'm trying to post something specifically about the educator / training provider type but it's taking longer than expected. Many interruptions.

 

[counter_violent]

Jon, would it not just be better to put these dimwits out of their misery once and for all.

Start a ftse dow methodology thread ...only need to run it for 2 weeks, unless of course there are finer points you wish to keep to yourself.

 

[kimo'sabby]

Jon, would it not just be better to put these dimwits out of their misery once and for all.

Start a ftse dow methodology thread ...only need to run it for 2 weeks, unless of course there are finer points you wish to keep to yourself.

Don't start showing off