A Can of Worms . . .

Chicken Curry said:
Look ere matey, this thread is supposed to be about fishing right ?

On that basis it started badly, ok ?
Here is a suggestion for you...

Why don't you start a fishing thread disguised as something else, so that very clever fish you really want to catch will not spot the bait is fastened onto a barbed hook at the end of a line ?

Not all fishes are alert and savvy about these things, then if you are lucky you might succeeed in landing a whopper you can call your own, instead of you getting frustrated at going round fishmongers' stalls in never ending rounds.

You might even win a cup, on a plinth....who knows, anything is possible. Eh ?

 
It may have run it "coarse" from keen fishermens' point of view, but those of us who are not fishing, or who have no desire to fish, or do not need to, we are enjoying it very much, thank you.

It is a little thread that is turning out very well indeed , since there is something for everybody in it. :cheesy:
 
....Errr...on second thoughts....here is a helpful suggestion.....

Why don't you have a good read in Traderpedia ? There you will find an Alladin's Cave of Information, much more interesting and worthwhile to you than hovering here, where all you encounter obviously is of no use to you.

I have now run out of ideas, sorry.
 
In my opening comments to the thread, I said. . .
"To post or not to post, this is the question? To offer your ideas and comments or to apply a double layer of duck tape to to your bulletin board gob? It's all a question of effix".
The thread has meandered hither and thither but, nonetheless, many of the posts have addressed what is - and what is not - helpful, acceptable and desirable when it comes to posting on a public forum such as this. Given that much of the content has not been trading related, I am surprised at some of the vitriol that has surfaced. Indeed, one member has received a month's ban for his comments - on this very thread.

So, after 15 pages, we have Starspacer's post. (now deleted by frugi) Clearly, he is an excellent wordsmith which, I for one, admire hugely. That said, does Chicken Curry really deserve such a ferocious attack? I think not and I am left wondering why starspacer felt the need to post his comments in the way that he has. In what way are they 'helpful, acceptable and desirable' to the thread and to T2W as a whole? Whether or not they infringe the site's guidelines is for the moderators to decide. Personally, I would not have written such a post but, as everyone here has probably gathered by now, I'm a 'southern softy' - and proud of it!
Tim.
 
timsk said:
In my opening comments to the thread, I said. . .
"To post or not to post, this is the question? To offer your ideas and comments or to apply a double layer of duck tape to to your bulletin board gob? It's all a question of effix".
The thread has meandered hither and thither but, nonetheless, many of the posts have addressed what is - and what is not - helpful, acceptable and desirable when it comes to posting on a public forum such as this. Given that much of the content has not been trading related, I am surprised at some of the vitriol that has surfaced. Indeed, one member has received a month's ban for his comments - on this very thread.

So, after 15 pages, we have Starspacer's post. (now deleted by frugi) Clearly, he is an excellent wordsmith which, I for one, admire hugely. That said, does Chicken Curry really deserve such a ferocious attack? I think not and I am left wondering why starspacer felt the need to post his comments in the way that he has. In what way are they 'helpful, acceptable and desirable' to the thread and to T2W as a whole? Whether or not they infringe the site's guidelines is for the moderators to decide. Personally, I would not have written such a post but, as everyone here has probably gathered by now, I'm a 'southern softy' - and proud of it!
Tim.
Yes Timsk, but in your good natured quest and your open minded curiosity you overlook the significance of the obvious. This is that a website such as this does not lend itself, because of its public exposure, to discussion of really sensitve nitty gritty stuff, best discussed and / or shared by really well informed entities behind locked doors. There is a persistent closed loop kind of cycle in which the members that ask are persistent inquirers but equally these enquiries do not get very far as the holders of the nitty gritties are not willing to part with really sensitive nitty gritty stuff for the reasons I mention above and other reasons not included.

Then what results is the manifestation of frustrations that vent. But notwithstanding the previous, all these ventings are of very great interest to listening posts devoted to sounding out the majority popular opinion. You could say that a website with this sort of content is but a microcosm of capitalism, in which there are inequalties, but that is the nature of capitalism. The alternative is the opposite, and then, if that was the case, there would be no website, or freedom of speech, or indeed any markets, either to trade in, or even to talk about.

And by the way from a personal viewpoint I deplore really incisive posts being deleted.
In the words of Apollinaire " No sooner does a genius appear, than all the dunces in the world conspire against him".
 
The true nature of a thread ?

SOCRATES said:
Yes Timsk, but in your good natured quest and your open minded curiosity you overlook the significance of the obvious.

Like Tim I was, am and will continue my own quest to learn and to pass on information in an open manner as befits what I perceive to be the aims of this site. I too had overlooked the obvious to which you have just opened my eyes, despite that fact that at 4.30 am I can hardly open them physically !

SOCRATES said:

This is that a website such as this does not lend itself, because of its public exposure, to discussion of really sensitve nitty gritty stuff, best discussed and / or shared by really well informed entities behind locked doors.

I begin to understand - Is it possible to discuss ANY of this here or is it a totally fruitless exercise ?

SOCRATES said:

There is a persistent closed loop kind of cycle in which the members that ask are persistent inquirers but equally these enquiries do not get very far as the holders of the nitty gritties are not willing to part with really sensitive nitty gritty stuff for the reasons I mention above and other reasons not included.

I have certainly noticed that most postings dwell at the level of generality, which does not really surprise me. At a mechanical level one can pick up the odd morsel, but it requires further processing within one's own perceptual context to add value and to incorporate into one's trading plan. At a deeper level what is said and, more importantly, unsaid provides clues to undestanding the forces behind the markets. It has been a consistent theme of your postings, IMHO, to make us read, truly read and think, truly think, at a deeper level

SOCRATES said:
Then what results is the manifestation of frustrations that vent. But notwithstanding the previous, all these ventings are of very great interest to listening posts devoted to sounding out the majority popular opinion. You could say that a website with this sort of content is but a microcosm of capitalism, in which there are inequalties, but that is the nature of capitalism.

I am often frustrated by these threads and their constant re-directions and lapses into abuse and discourtesy, but I realise this is the nature of things. As you have said in the past these provide a respite for the lone trader - a little light relief from TA, FA, astrology, your guru. I also understand now that this reflects trading life, capitalism and life itself. Constanly lurk the Sirens to trick us to linger by their clever, knavish, and deceitful words.

SOCRATES said:

The alternative is the opposite, and then, if that was the case, there would be no website, or freedom of speech, or indeed any markets, either to trade in, or even to talk about.

Indeed - this is the nature of things. This is why, to return to Tim's original question "To post or not to post" it is important to do so, but we should not be surprised by the direction that a thread takes thereafter.

Thank you for an interesting insight.


Charlton
 
timsk said:
So, after 15 pages, we have Starspacer's post. (now deleted by frugi) Clearly, he is an excellent wordsmith which, I for one, admire hugely.
By that same token then Tim, you would even more hugely admire, a Dictionary, or a book of quotes.

When fine words are substituted for original, concise and focused thought, all we are left with are the empty echoes of other minds, often long passed. That's not to say those who have gone before have nothing useful to offer. Quite the opposite.

But it needs to be used as a starting point in going on and going further - not as an end in itself simply as an attempt to impress for the want of any other skill or ability.
 
Very few people who are really interested in trading problems are going to waste their time reading the supercilious junk that has been posted on this thread. I have noticed that most of the longer threads do deteriorate in this way and , or so it seems to me, the usual small group ,who fancy themselves as participants of an online Algonquin Hotel Round Table, are the cause of it.

There are forums elsewhere, on this site, where one's literary skills can be exercised, but the offenders are too lazy to go there.

Split
 
Split

How refreshing to find someone who appears to be on a similar wavelength to myself.

I echo your sentiments entirely.
 
Chicken Curry said:
Presumably that will be after you have gone through your books of quotations to ascertain whose words are best to quote in this situation ?
:LOL:

No, please don't. He's on the back foot as it is.
 
Your view from the other side of midnight...

Charlton said:
Like Tim I was, am and will continue my own quest to learn and to pass on information in an open manner as befits what I perceive to be the aims of this site. I too had overlooked the obvious to which you have just opened my eyes, despite that fact that at 4.30 am I can hardly open them physically !

Information can be passed on in an open manner but the kind of information that can be passed on is limited.

I begin to understand - Is it possible to discuss ANY of this here or is it a totally fruitless exercise ?

If you were a magician and were able to levitate yourself and view all of this from above, you would be disillusioned to observe and realise that very nearly all of it is a hall of mirrors, which serves to entrap people according to their own perceptions. And these perceptions are perniciously warped as a consequence of these multiple mirrors reflecting reflections of reflections. It is a situation from which for the great majority, sadly, there is no escape.

I have certainly noticed that most postings dwell at the level of generality, which does not really surprise me. At a mechanical level one can pick up the odd morsel, but it requires further processing within one's own perceptual context to add value and to incorporate into one's trading plan. At a deeper level what is said and, more importantly, unsaid provides clues to undestanding the forces behind the markets. It has been a consistent theme of your postings, IMHO, to make us read, truly read and think, truly think, at a deeper level

Yes, precisely, in order to escape the entrapment of the hall of mirrors radical self changes have to be made, and these changes have to be self induced and self motivated. This is very difficult if not impossible for the great majority of people, because part of the problem is that they actually enjoy being entrapped.

I am often frustrated by these threads and their constant re-directions and lapses into abuse and discourtesy, but I realise this is the nature of things. As you have said in the past these provide a respite for the lone trader - a little light relief from TA, FA, astrology, your guru. I also understand now that this reflects trading life, capitalism and life itself. Constanly lurk the Sirens to trick us to linger by their clever, knavish, and deceitful words.

Astrolgy and psychology and psychiatry other nonsenses do not come into it, they are misguided placebos, like bits of a jigsaw puzzle belonging to another puzzle being force fitted irrelevantly, because the root core of the problem is not adressed.

The true route to freedom from the hall of mirrors is the correct application of thought. But
correct thinking is but an extension of correct behaviour, and conversely.

Because the hall of mirrors additionally facilitates behaviour unsuitable for the application of the correct conduct to ensure escape from what is in reality a slave domain then it serves as a perfect trap for those who are out of order. These entities therefore punish themselves, in reward of their very own transgressions.

Indeed - this is the nature of things. This is why, to return to Tim's original question "To post or not to post" it is important to do so, but we should not be surprised by the direction that a thread takes thereafter.

Do not be surprised, for it is not the real world at all, but the apparent world existing to keep the real world as an exclusive enclave, screened off and protected from unwelcome invasion.

Very Kind Regards.

Thank you for an interesting insight.


Charlton
.
 
Splitlink said:
Very few people who are really interested in trading problems are going to waste their time reading the supercilious junk that has been posted on this thread.
Split, this thread isn't about trading problems. It's in the Lounge. It is precisely about the exact phenomena we are discussing right now.

People who were hoping to be reading about trading problems & issues would be a little disappointed, not to mention stupid, imagining that was going to be discussed in a thread in this forum with this topic/thread title.

There's plenty to occupy and entertain us on serious trading issues elsewhere on the site.

This thread, and the others like it, fulfil a necessary purpose. As it presumably has for you to be bothered to respond as you have....
 
Mr Bramble

This thread originated in "General Trading Chat" I believe but was relegated to "The Lounge" as a result of its total degeneration into farce.
 
Dear Spicy, not too sure how to respond... :(

When Split made his post - this thread had been repositioned into the Lounge? (I don't know - I'm asking) so it's unlikely Split's expectation were for a good old read about solid trading matters. Was it?

The first post, regardless of its provenance forum-wise, was clearly not related to trading matters per se.

I don't think anyone is going to have the office of Fair Trading do Timsk for misrepresentation. Or in other words, everyone knew (and knows :LOL: ) what they're getting into.

I'm not defending anyone. Nor supporting anyone.

I simply find it interesting when those people who choose to comment on the comments they find inappropriate contextually, are by definition, one level further removed from the original intent of the thread, but they seem to fail to appreciate the delightful irony of their situation.

Not a dig. Just an on-going observation of thread life - and ordinary trader folk.
 
When this thread started in the The General Trading Chat I started to follow it. As you all probably know, when a subscription is made, email notifications are sent by T2W.

I must admit to not noticing that a change had been made when I made my comment this morning. Obviously, it was uncalled for when addressed to a thread in the Foyer, but I did not realise that I was addressing a debating circle. I should have paid more attention to the preceding posts and unsubscribed to the thread.

Split
 
From timsk: "So, after 15 pages, we have Starspacer's post. (now deleted by frugi) Clearly, he is an excellent wordsmith which, I for one, admire hugely. That said, does Chicken Curry really deserve such a ferocious attack? I think not and I am left wondering why starspacer felt the need to post his comments in the way that he has. In what way are they 'helpful, acceptable and desirable' to the thread and to T2W as a whole?"
In my posts, the latest of which now sadly cannot now be seen, I was offering explanations in solution to certain questions posed, and then putting forward thoughts so that other members could provide counter arguments which could then result in better solutions. This exchange of views is simply conversation amongst people who do not always agree with each other about everything. You (Chicken Curry, timsk, Bramble,Splitlink etc.) could conduct this sort of ‘ferocious’ criticism on your own (assuming you had the necessary intellectual discipline), but others can help greatly. It helps you to think of criticisms from another perspective, provided you free your mind to just the possibility that you may be wrong. The journey is about questioning assumptions, digging for deeper understanding, the process, as much as it is about the final destination. As Charlton stated “I too had overlooked the obvious to which you [Socrates] have just opened my eyes, despite th[e] fact that at 4.30 am I can hardly open them physically!”
From TheBramble: "When fine words are substituted for original, concise and focused thought, all we are left with are the empty echoes of other minds, often long passed. That's not to say those who have gone before have nothing useful to offer. Quite the opposite."
Oh dear Bramble, you have offered a self contradictory statement again (which is thereby a self-refuting, self-annihilating one) Some of your posts, like this one, reveal a self-inconsistent process or practice which can be reduced to absurdity. It is the equivalence of saying “keep the old New Orleans intact until the new one is constructed. And build New Orleans again from the materials salvaged by demolishing the old.”
I would encourage you, Chicken Curry, frugi (and other moderators) to read the Allegory of the Cave (although I am sure you won’t). To save you the trouble of looking it up, I quote an extract as follows:
The Allegory of the Cave (The Republic , Book VII)
Socrates
And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: Behold! human beings living in an underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

Glaucon

I see.

Socrates

And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

Glaucon

You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.

Socrates

Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

Glaucon

True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

Socrates

And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

Glaucon

Yes, he said.

Socrates

And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them? And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy, when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

Glaucon

No question, he replied.

Socrates

To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

Glaucon

That is certain.

Socrates

And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive someone saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision,, what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing. And when to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

Glaucon

Far truer.

Socrates

And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

Glaucon

True, he said.

Socrates

And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he is forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities?

Glaucon

Not all in a moment, he said.

Socrates

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

Glaucon

Certainly.

Socrates

Last of all he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

Glaucon

Certainly.

Socrates

He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?

Glaucon

Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about it.

Socrates

And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

Glaucon

Certainly, he would.

Socrates

And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer, ‘Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?’

Glaucon

Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.
Those of you who have read this far may now be closer to understanding the Truth. For most, too lazy to read, still lazier to try to understand, you will no doubt post more criticisms and foolish piffle. That’s fine, you will be duly ignored.
From Splitlink: "Very few people who are really interested in trading problems are going to waste their time reading the supercilious junk that has been posted on this thread."
And yet, you seem to have read it Splitlink, how otherwise would you be posting a (presumably insightful) comment. Bertie has already covered the point about trading mastery. I now devote little time to this diversion. Other matters are more important.
From Chicken Curry: "Split, [h]ow refreshing to find someone who appears to be on a similar wavelength to myself."
I recommend that you both read ‘11 Steps To a Better Brain’ published 28 May 2005 in the New Scientist. It may help you both tune up your wavelengths.
From Socrates: "And by the way from a personal viewpoint I deplore really incisive posts being deleted.In the words of Apollinaire " No sooner does a genius appear, than all the dunces in the world conspire against him"."
As was the case against Socrates, Erasmus and countless others. Deletion is of no consequence. I simply accept that if power be in the hands of men, it will sometimes be abused. Indeed, this is how empires and institutions collapse. It is a manifestation of the power of moral evil.

So, ladies and gentleman, post away, for you have my assurance (barring lies or deceit) that I will never request that it be removed. I embrace criticism in all its forms for it provides me with the strength and resolve for the journey to discover the Truth.

 
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