The REAL global warming

So much for consensus. The following is from Dr Vincent Grey, who was an expert reviewer for the IPCC for 18 years. It seems that he's not totally convinced:

http://www.devilskitchen.me.uk/2008/07/more-consesus-er.html

He signs off thus:

This Climate Change Statement is veritably an orchestrated litany of lies, to borrow a phrase. As a longstanding member of the Royal Society of New Zealand I am unable to tolerate such a departure as this from the supposed objectives of fair or responsible comment on scientific matters, so I have resigned in protest.
 
Re: Copenhagen climate change talks must fail, says top scientist

Another interesting link that basically says all politicians haven't grasped what is needed.


Paul

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/02/copenhagen-climate-change-james-hansen?CMP=AFCYAH


Forget the Politicians....even the leanred lot havent a clue as to how to deal with the issue....

The problem is many faceted....manufacturing...production...ecnomy...and global trade...

If you take half of Chinese manufacturing out of China to elsewhere, then Chinese will suddenly NOT be the biggest polluters...But that will not happen as Politicians will not be able to implement that move...So everyone is working around a solution to reduce the emmissions by forcing Chinese and Indians, but at the same time not expecting them to reduce the manufacturing process...

So it is a complex process, and it is never easy to lecture other countries when thay supply goods at less than what it will cost to manufacture locally...!

There is a Patent for a hybrid aeroplane....It is half zepellin and half aeroplane...It will fly and land like an aeroplace but as it is aided by helium, it uses less power to fly...But it will take longer to reach destination as it semi floats...

Now will anyone implement it....?..NO...What we have is the biggest air bus that is being touted by West for selling onto the World...

Where is a lead by 'responsible' nations...?
 
Re: Copenhagen climate change talks must fail, says top scientist

There is a Patent for a hybrid aeroplane....It is half zepellin and half aeroplane...But it will take longer to reach destination as it semi floats...

Now will anyone implement it....?..NO...

:eek::D:LOL:

Absolute genius!
 
The thing is with the consensus wallahs, you can trust them. They give it to you straight. So shut your ears to doubts and feast on the following quotes from some well-known experts who care about the planet and aren't selfish b*rstard deniers like me.

"We need to get some broad based support, to capture the public's imagination... So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts... Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest." - Stephen Schneider, Stanford Professor of Climatology, lead author of many IPCC reports

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen." - Sir John Houghton, first chairman of IPCC

"We've got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy." - Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony... climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world." - Christine Stewart, fmr Canadian Minister of the Environment

"The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe." - emeritus professor Daniel Botkin

"Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it our responsiblity to bring that about?" - Maurice Strong, founder of the UN Environment Programme

"A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation." - Paul Ehrlich, Professor of Population Studies

"The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States. We can't let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the US. We have to stop these Third World countries right where they are." - Michael Oppenheimer, Environmental Defense Fund

"Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty, reduced resource consumption and set levels of mortality control." - Professor Maurice King


Hard to pick a favourite, although "set levels of mortality control" is interesting, terrifying and evil.
 
Re: Copenhagen climate change talks must fail, says top scientist

.....:sleep:....

......:sleep:......:sleep:......:sleep:......:LOL:

Seriously though, half zep, half plane? You know why nobody will implent it? Because it's as mad as a box of frogs. Things like the OE and two weeks on the Grand Princess aside, most travel is predominantly concerned with the movement of people from A to B. As (in most cases) the actual act of travelling is not an end in itself, but a necessary step to achieving a desired outcome, most travellers prefer the travelling process to be as short as possible. Hence flying is considered better than "semi-floating", which would be seen by most people as utterly pointless. Thus the reason why your 1920s style "travel of the future" idea will not be built - no one would take it if a Boeing was going in the same direction.

As an aside, I would love air travel in something that doesn't just drop out of the sky if anything goes wrong. I'm terrified of flying and have to load up on 20mg of diazzies and a few brandies just to go near a plane. So some kind of floating device would suit me down to the ground (so to speak) - for me the extra time would be well worth. But not enough people feel the same way to make it commercially viable.
 
The following makes not a scrap of difference to the truth of the AGW theory. However, many proponents of it like to dismiss sceptics by claiming that they are simply doing it for the money - they are funded by Big Oil etc.

So it might be interesting to see if we can discern any reason for passion of the world's highest-profile believer, Al Gore, other than a passionate desire to save the planet for all of us. The following is taken from a piece in the LA Times.

Well, now we have some explanation for why former vice president Al Gore is delaying the announcement of his 2008 presidential campaign. He's making a big bundle off the environment by talking about it.

Thanks to thesmokinggun.com website, we have access to a copy of the contract for the recent speech by Gore at the University of California, San Diego. It's an inconvenient truth that he got $100,000 for the 75-minute environmental slide presentation at the public school and agreed to an extra 10 minutes of questions.

Among the other requirements set out by Gore:

First-class roundtrip air transportation for himself and one traveling companion, who is also to receive $1,000 per day in expenses; all meal, phone and other expenses to be covered for both; a security guard for every minute of his visit; a sedan, preferably a hybrid but definitely not an SUV, for all transportation; no press access or interviews; no video or audio taping or broadcast of the event; no photographs; approval of all scenery, logos, banners and settings for the appearance; approval of all communications and mailings regarding the appearance; Gore agrees only to a brief reception with sponsors and invited guests; and the contents of the contract must be kept strictly confidential.


Good work if you can get it - even better than buying carbon offsets from your own company :LOL:.
 
Trust NASA completely - they're really, really, really sure they've got it right this time:

The numbers matter. Under pressure in 2007, NASA recalculated its data and found that 1934, not 1998, was the hottest year in its records for the contiguous 48 states. NASA later changed that data again, and now 1998 and 2006 are tied for first, with 1934 slightly cooler. (Wahington Times)

How hard can it be from NASA's point of view to determine which year was the hottest? And if it is so open to interpretation (which,given the complexity of the matter seems to me to be reasonable) how can we trust their elaborate graphs and heavily "adjusted" temperature records?
 
Re: Copenhagen climate change talks must fail, says top scientist

......:sleep:......:sleep:......:sleep:......:LOL:

Seriously though, half zep, half plane? You know why nobody will implent it? Because it's as mad as a box of frogs. Things like the OE and two weeks on the Grand Princess aside, most travel is predominantly concerned with the movement of people from A to B. As (in most cases) the actual act of travelling is not an end in itself, but a necessary step to achieving a desired outcome, most travellers prefer the travelling process to be as short as possible. Hence flying is considered better than "semi-floating", which would be seen by most people as utterly pointless. Thus the reason why your 1920s style "travel of the future" idea will not be built - no one would take it if a Boeing was going in the same direction.

As an aside, I would love air travel in something that doesn't just drop out of the sky if anything goes wrong. I'm terrified of flying and have to load up on 20mg of diazzies and a few brandies just to go near a plane. So some kind of floating device would suit me down to the ground (so to speak) - for me the extra time would be well worth. But not enough people feel the same way to make it commercially viable.

The proposal and design was serious enough.....The buoyancy - if that is the right word to use in this context was well thought out design....

If people want to 'get there' is as quick as possible, then why did concord get out of fashion.....World's most uneconomical design in terms of fuel and co2 emission....

Some of the world's best design did start off as laughing stock and in the end it was accepted as norm...

New designes have never got the attention it deserves...



Car design proposed by Buckminster Fuller in 30's was an advanced and aerodynamic design. At that time Ford was designing 'Edsel' and other crap that were massive failures...




In this new fashion of sudden realisation that we will be doomed unless we do something, I would suggest that you read work of Victor Papanek called - Design for Real World.....
 
OK, I shouldn't have laughed - that looks a lot better than it sounded at first. Particularly the parts about not crashing and not getting blown up by nutters. Personally (after it had been tested a great deal) I think I would prefer your idea to normal aircraft.

Speed obviously isn't everything, and I didn't mean to imply that it was. It obviously has to be balanced against other factors such as value, safety and so on. Concorde got the balance wrong.

As for technological advancement and better design, absolutely. It is why one should bet on man every time. Do you remember Paul Ehrlich and his population bomb, and the Club of Rome going on about how we'd run out of tin and whatnot? Well, crop yields have increased masively, new land is brought into cultivation, scientists engineer better seeds, on and on. And the idea that running out of any particular resource is a problem is laughable if you know anything about technological advance, substitution and so forth.

There was an advert on telly a while back encouraging people to become teachers. It focused on how interesting the job was and featured children asking profound and fascinating questions. The one that grabbed my attention was "What happens when the oil runs out?".

The answer is absurdly simple. Worst case, we'll burn something else. Most likely, by the time that becomes a remote possibility, we won't need oil anyway (it already seems very primitive - to me at least - to still be digging up bits of old animals and plants and burning them in little engines). Man's ingenuity will discover a new way, and the profit motive wil ensure that someone will make it commercially viable. What about plastics and everything else that oil goes into? Again, we'll find something better - we always do.

I agree that we will indeed all be doomed if we don't do "something" - my suggestion for a starting point would be to force everyone to read "The Emperor's New Clothes" and then have another think about AGW, before we take the West back to the pre-industrial age.

Anyway, thanks for those very interesting videos, and sorry for my hasty and dismissive first response.
 
From The Sydney Morning Herald, some questions over the accuracy of Australian temperature data:

LONDON: Australian weather records for an international database on climate change were a "bloody mess", riddled with entry errors, duplication and inaccuracies, leaked British computer files reveal.

The Herald found the criticism in a 247-page specialist programmer's log, unearthed among the thousands of files hacked from East Anglia University, which is at the centre of a climate change email scandal.

Labelled "HARRY-READ-ME", the log catalogues problems with the raw, historical climate data sent from hundreds of meteorological stations around the world.

The Australian data comes in for particular criticism as the programmer discovers World Meteorological Organisation codes are missing, station names overlap and many co-ordinates are incorrect.

At one point the programmer writes about his attempts to make sense of the data. "What a bloody mess," he concludes. In another case, 30 years of data is attributed to a site at Cobar Airport but the frustrated programmer writes: "Now looking at the dates. something bad has happened ... COBAR AIRPORT AWS [automatic weather station] cannot start in 1962, it didn't open until 1993!"

In another he says: "Getting seriously fed up with the state of the Australian data ... so many false references ... so many changes ... bewildering."

The log spans four years of work at the university's Climatic Research Unit, the British keeper of global temperature records. The programmer rails that the information has "no uniform integrity".

His criticisms relate solely to the construction of the database and do not question the validity of historical temperature records or analyses that suggest the impact of human activity on global warming trends.

"I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same

station name and very similar co-ordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that's the case? Aarrggghhh! There truly is no end in sight."

Michael Coughlan, the head of the National Climate Centre at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, said it was difficult to comment without knowing the source of the raw data. It was unlikely to have come directly from the bureau's centre because unchecked, raw data was rarely requested for climate analysis. The bureau had a network of more than 100 specially selected weather stations to monitor climate change, and a century of records from them had been checked.

"We've put an enormous effort into developing a high-quality reliable climate record for Australia and all that data is freely available," Dr Coughlan said.

But he said that if the British programmer had been using raw weather data, which is sent around the world in real time for weather forecasting, it would not be surprising that it contained errors. This raw data could have come from countries other than Australia, and would have been difficult to correct without access to information in Australia, such as the original field books.

"A computer programmer sitting in England won't have the resources to make those corrections. I can understand their frustrations," Dr Coughlan said.

The programmer's log is one of the most read files worldwide since the email archives were leaked. The log has been treated particularly sympathetically as it reveals his blow-by-blow frustrations, which seemed to be unfolding as his scientist colleagues, including the head of the Climatic Research Unit, Phil Jones, appeared to discuss via email ways to avoid freedom-of-information requests for raw data and to denigrate their critics.

Professor Jones, who has denied a conspiracy to manipulate global warming statistics as "complete rubbish", has stood down from his post while the university investigates the leaks.

The Herald attempted to contact Professor Jones and spoke to the computer programmer we believe to be the author of the file. The programmer did not deny his name but referred queries to the university's media unit. Professor Jones has not responded.

RealClimate, a website run by climate scientists, confirms the log as the work of a specialist charged with upgrading data.

"Anyone who has ever worked on constructing a database from dozens of individual, sometimes contradictory and inconsistently formatted datasets, will share his evident frustration with how tedious that can be," it says.
 
Wrong again. The latest studies show both the West Antarctic and East Antarctic ice sheets losing mass. There is no dispute that Greenland ice sheet is losing mass and the polar ice is melting. http://www.skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice.htm

Report in The Australian from earlier this year:

The results of ice-core drilling and sea ice monitoring indicate there is no large-scale melting of ice over most of Antarctica, although experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast.

Antarctica has 90 per cent of the Earth's ice and 80 per cent of its fresh water. Extensive melting of Antarctic ice sheets would be required to raise sea levels substantially, and ice is melting in parts of west Antarctica. The destabilisation of the Wilkins ice shelf generated international headlines this month.

However, the picture is very different in east Antarctica, which includes the territory claimed by Australia.

East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades".


Australian Antarctic Division glaciology program head Ian Allison said sea ice losses in west Antarctica over the past 30 years had been more than offset by increases in the Ross Sea region, just one sector of east Antarctica.

"Sea ice conditions have remained stable in Antarctica generally," Dr Allison said.

The melting of sea ice -- fast ice and pack ice -- does not cause sea levels to rise because the ice is in the water. Sea levels may rise with losses from freshwater ice sheets on the polar caps. In Antarctica, these losses are in the form of icebergs calved from ice shelves formed by glacial movements on the mainland.

Last week, federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett said experts predicted sea level rises of up to 6m from Antarctic melting by 2100, but the worst case scenario foreshadowed by the SCAR report was a 1.25m rise.

Mr Garrett insisted global warming was causing ice losses throughout Antarctica. "I don't think there's any doubt it is contributing to what we've seen both on the Wilkins shelf and more generally in Antarctica," he said.

Dr Allison said there was not any evidence of significant change in the mass of ice shelves in east Antarctica nor any indication that its ice cap was melting. "The only significant calvings in Antarctica have been in the west," he said. And he cautioned that calvings of the magnitude seen recently in west Antarctica might not be unusual.

"Ice shelves in general have episodic carvings and there can be large icebergs breaking off -- I'm talking 100km or 200km long -- every 10 or 20 or 50 years."

Ice core drilling in the fast ice off Australia's Davis Station in East Antarctica by the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-Operative Research Centre shows that last year, the ice had a maximum thickness of 1.89m, its densest in 10 years. The average thickness of the ice at Davis since the 1950s is 1.67m.


A paper to be published soon by the British Antarctic Survey in the journal Geophysical Research Letters is expected to confirm that over the past 30 years, the area of sea ice around the continent has expanded.


So how do we reconcile the two differing claims?
 
I thought that this public opinion survey of Chinese opinion was rather interesting, in that it rates "environmental issues like climate change" by a large margin to be the biggest threat to China's future security. The Lowy institute has a history of producing excellent opinion surveys.

Developing countries are well aware of the problem.

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/

Chinese opinion polls :LOL::LOL::LOL:.

Can't wait for the results of the next survey of Burmese and North Korean public opinion, or some views of the people of Turkmenistan.

Here's another idea, why not hold an "election" in Afghanistan? No worries about the outcome being real. :LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
'We' are past peak oil. Our political class and masters and to whom they are ultimately responsible realise that without the revenue from oil (and all its derived taxable products) as the only economic driver for the majority of the global economy, they are rendered impotent.

The greatest fear the established ruling classes have is the final removal of their political power to be replaced by localised 'pod' autonomous governments, spending the money in localised economies for the good of their immediate population/neighbours, whilst at a stroke by-passing corrupt central governments...

What we currently witness unravelling (and falling apart just as quickly) is a 30-50 year attempt at an indoctrination campaign pitifully trying to convince the plebians (globally) that saving the planet is still worth paying 30/40% overall taxes for even once there is no fuel...

This insulting programme is not about the planet, our political leaders care less than they ever did. Giving birth to a new world order, to protect political and economic interests, is the only game in town...climate change is simply the trojan..
 
...Yes....

Universe and Earth has existed for millenniums.....I find it amazing that Man, who lives for on average 80 years is suddenly predicting a form of Definite' gloom and doom and death of half mankind in next 30 years...!

People are easily led.....Mention any catastrophe and you can get them marching to a drum beat....!
 
'We' are past peak oil. Our political class and masters and to whom they are ultimately responsible realise that without the revenue from oil (and all its derived taxable products) as the only economic driver for the majority of the global economy, they are rendered impotent.

The greatest fear the established ruling classes have is the final removal of their political power to be replaced by localised 'pod' autonomous governments, spending the money in localised economies for the good of their immediate population/neighbours, whilst at a stroke by-passing corrupt central governments...

What we currently witness unravelling (and falling apart just as quickly) is a 30-50 year attempt at an indoctrination campaign pitifully trying to convince the plebians (globally) that saving the planet is still worth paying 30/40% overall taxes for even once there is no fuel...

This insulting programme is not about the planet, our political leaders care less than they ever did. Giving birth to a new world order, to protect political and economic interests, is the only game in town...climate change is simply the trojan..

like global warming peak oil is up for debate and not proven fact
 
like global warming peak oil is up for debate and not proven fact

I'd suggest as a concept (and claim) it has far more credible fact contained within than the usual kite flying climate change emotional nonsense.
 
Very dramatic from the Guardian today:

"Fourteen days to seal history's judgment on this generation
Today 56 newspapers in 45 countries take the unprecedented step of speaking with one voice through a common editorial. We do so because humanity faces a profound emergency."


A new tax created overnight on every company around the world, followed by increased looting of the general public through stealth taxes and emotional manipulation is quite an emergency. Trillions are about to be transferred from the prosperity of businesses and consumers worldwide.
 
Very dramatic from the Guardian today:

"Fourteen days to seal history's judgment on this generation
Today 56 newspapers in 45 countries take the unprecedented step of speaking with one voice through a common editorial. We do so because humanity faces a profound emergency."


A new tax created overnight on every company around the world, followed by increased looting of the general public through stealth taxes and emotional manipulation is quite an emergency. Trillions are about to be transferred from the prosperity of businesses and consumers worldwide.

Good spot, d'ya have a link? Totally pi55ed off with man made climate change doubters being ridiculed as flat earth believers...

If a govt. is pushing any agenda so hard (and so quickly) you should automatically be very, very wary. The general populus needs to ask; "when was the last time we were being corralled with such ferocity over an issue by central government and the usual suspect media sources?" Iraq and Afghanistan. Blair, shortly before the invasion, suggested anyone who doubted the existence of WMD and believed the invasion was a resource war by proxy, was simply a conspiracy theorist...

The real issue is oil and the power and control it brings - socially and economically. We have developed no alternative fuels which will be fit and ready for the masses in 40-50 years time, the lights will have to go out in the more developed nations. The vision of us flying about our day in personal nuclear powered 'Jetson' hover mobiles, exchanging credits for simply existing and being a good citizen, is never going to happen.

The immediate shift in the balance of power once we're far beyond peak oil must be terrifying for the political elite and the massively wealthy, the correction in asset value and the destruction of their control will be a true event horizon...
 
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