The REAL global warming

The NASA GISS data and models (incl source) are available for download. All you need to run the models is a Unix workstation (eg a Linux PC). I reckon that you could probably get 'em to run on a Windows box under cygwin with fairly little effort.

Like I have a clue.....

Purely your opinion. It is inevitable that models and simulations MUST be used.

Granted - could say that about alot of what you say too. Models should be used, I agree. But when the weather forecast is as crap as it is, why should long-range forecasting be any better?

In any case CO2 IS a green house gas. This has been known for a long, long time. Estimates of how an increase in CO2 affects temperature go back to the early part of the 20th century. It is fairly basic physics.

No, really? I did not say I disagree with any of this....

I suppose, if you move your historical bound far enough any amount of climate change will still fit into some sort of bounds. The issues of trend and rate of change are critical. And should we all sit around waiting for whatever bounds we may think reasonable to be exceeded?

This is the crux of the argument IMO. To continue the trading analogy, this would be long-term support and resistance. (Then we can look for pin bars forming on them and everyone around here will start masturbating. :cool:)....er... Are those limits levels at which other processes kick in and reverse the cycle?

in any case what matters is the truth or as close to the truth as we can get.

I agree. And this is the point which I am getting at. For me, I don't know what that is. I'm willing to err on the side of caution though.

Possibly because they are the most mature technologies. There is current research into geothermal and not only in places like Iceland where the geology makes it much easier.

Not really - geothermal can be set up in houses for roughly the same price as a conventional boiler, and will last roughly the same amount of time. I know this, because I had a quote a while back. It is all do-able now. I think you are talking about a slightly different form of geothermal to me here, with the deep geothermal vent business. i'm talking about simple heat exchange with 'shallower' levels. The stuff you mention here requires certain geology (i.e. faultlines) which Iceland of course has in abundance.

The wildcard that hardly ever gets a mention is fusion, which could be the real holy grail. Nobody really knows when it might be, because it is probably the most difficult engineering task ever attempted. I watched a documentary on fusion presented by Brian Cox recently. It mentioned that the UK spends more on mobile ring tones than fusion research. Fusion may be well down the track, but that neglect just strikes me as idiotic.


Fusion is a seriously hot topic and has been for decades. There is a massive international fusion reactor project (Iter) in France that is being built currently and is being funded by a consortium of governments. I totally agree it will be the way to go if/when acheived. The problem with this, as anything is the rate at which technology advances. The Large Hadron Collider was designed in the 80's, and therefore it was conceivable then and is probably built with mostly 80's technology. Same is true for Fusion. The Iter reactor type (Tokamak) is well established (Since the 1960's) and will simply be addressing issues of scalability - they reckon that Iter will be the first fusion reactor that will produce more energy than it takes to sustain fusion conditions (y) Which to some degree, suggests that fusion is possible today.
As for the ringtones quote :LOL: it is irrelevent but funny. I could just imagine a consortium of governments coming together to form the ringtones initiative to build a ringtones device!
But the issue here is this, I believe: what are you or anyone else doing about this, apart from thumping your chest, having a go at people and possibly recycling a bit of your waste?
 
The problem is getting access to the raw data, rather than listening to the various people's interpretation of data

In my view it is only "interpretation" of data available that matters.


Paul
 
The real issue- AGAIN, is not really about who is on what side. The real issue and theme of this thread is the hijacking of climate issues by self-interest groups, which is made easier by the propaganda machines that are mainstream media. This morning for example, SKY had a feature that informed me of a new lake in Mongolia or somewhere due to melted glaciers and stressed the urgency of our great leaders sealing a climate deal in Copenhagen because it was so vital, yet so tough to do.

As the buildup reaches fever pitch over the next week or two, watch for more climate change propaganda culminating in a 'triumphant victory for mankind' when the deals are signed in Copenhagen.

It's actually embarrassing to watch.
 
enviromental-head-in-the-sand.jpg
 
The real issue- AGAIN, is not really about who is on what side. The real issue and theme of this thread is the hijacking of climate issues by self-interest groups, which is made easier by the propaganda machines that are mainstream media. This morning for example, SKY had a feature that informed me of a new lake in Mongolia or somewhere due to melted glaciers and stressed the urgency of our great leaders sealing a climate deal in Copenhagen because it was so vital, yet so tough to do.

As the buildup reaches fever pitch over the next week or two, watch for more climate change propaganda culminating in a 'triumphant victory for mankind' when the deals are signed in Copenhagen.

It's actually embarrassing to watch.

Yes, it's truly terrible that the issue of climate science has been hi-jacked by err.... climate scientists! Their "special interest" in getting the science right will be our undoing. The only rational course would be to firmly put it into the hands of loony conspiracy web sites.
 
Yes, it's truly terrible that the issue of climate science has been hi-jacked by err.... climate scientists! Their "special interest" in getting the science right will be our undoing.

I could probably shatter a few illusions you might have about scientsists :LOL:
 
Re: Climate Skeptics Got it Wrong

A small error by their graphic designer. I've heard more credible excuses from a 5 year child.

The very fact that such an organisation should be brought into being to counteract the damage of these latest leaks speaks volumes.

This "organisation" is a denialist website. But don't let facts get in the way of making entirely unwarrented inferences.
 
This will sound weird to a lot of folk.

But since climategate I have moved from more or less skeptic, to more or less pro-consensus. I've even emailed phil jones to tell him.

I really don't have the time to evaluate the science (at least better than scientists) but I can see how people have behaved. And the reactions to these emails, which to my view don't seem to have said much, has been ridiculous and reminiscent of creationists or lysenko-followers or anything like that...

I still won't believe in predictions much... things are too chaotic and to the best of my knowledge no models take biological factors into account... which is a bit silly: assume humans cause climate change but who knows what evolved algae will do next... but I am far more of a believer in AGW than I was before this 'scandal' simply by the way anti global warming types are jumping on these emails like hungry terriers.

They don't seem to be behaving like proper scientists to me. So I am less impressed with them.
 
i dont care about global warming, wont stop me running down to the shops in my 911 turbo when i could easily walk

you gotta wonder tho, how many of these anti global warming people's pockets are lined with the cash of big oil? and seeing they have the deepest pockets on earth...
 
I thought that this public opinion survey of Chinese opinion was rather interesting, in that it rates "environmental issues like climate change" by a large margin to be the biggest threat to China's future security. The Lowy institute has a history of producing excellent opinion surveys.

Developing countries are well aware of the problem.

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/
 

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All I've taken away from reading about 'climategate' is what I already knew, which is that both sides of the debate are fundamentally full of **** and have agendas.

The parallels between the market and the climate are something to ponder though. As already mentioned, both are massively complex chaotic systems that are way beyond our meagre intelligence to accurately explain or predict. All we are doing is scratcing away at the surface as far as I can see. Quite typically we seem to be arrogant enough to believe that we can draw firm conclusions. But anyway, long may the scratching continue because in a couple of thousand years time we might get somewhere.
 
On the accuracy of NASA's temperature record:

http://www.devilskitchen.me.uk/2008/11/lies-damn-lies-and.html

(Use the link for the missing graphs)

During Spring, we are told, a young man's fancy turns to love. However, it is not Spring, it is Winter and so we return once again to the fantasy of global warming... er... I mean, climate change.

I think that we would all agree that to form any kind of theory about whether or not anthropogenic climate change is occurring, we really do need to have some vaguely reliable data; after all, if there is no actual warming, then it's a little difficult to say that we're causing it.

The trouble is that gaining a temperature reading for the entire world is actually a little tricky; it's a big planet we live on, and an awful lot of the surface area is made up of water. However, that hasn't stopped the Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS)—headed up by our old friend James Hansen (an enthusiastic proponent of anthropogenic global warming. Except in the seventies, when he was an enthusiastic proponent of anthropogenic global cooling)—relying on the land temperature record rather, than, say, satellite measurements.

There is, of course, some logic in this, as the land temperature record goes back until the late 1800s (in the US, at least), whilst satellite readings have been taken only since 1979. The trouble is that this very longevity introduces uncertainty into the temperature record: thermometers have become more sensitive, for instance, and population centres—with their attending urban heat island effect—have encroached on measuring stations once situated in the countryside.

It is, therefore, actually very difficult to gauge the average temperature over the globe with any degree of certainty, and the signal to noise ratio makes any estimate near worthless. Especially, of course, when the people responsible for the records keep retrospectively changing them, as Anthony Watts points out.


Blink comparator of GISS USA temperature anomaly - h/t to Zapruder

The last time I checked, the earth does not retroactively change it’s near surface temperature.

True, all data sets go through some corrections, such as the recent change RSS made to improve the quality of the satellite record which consists of a number of satellite spliced together. However, in the case of the near surface temperature record, we have many long period stations than span the majority of the time period shown above, and they have already been adjusted for TOBS, SHAP, FILNET etc by NOAA prior to being distributed for use by organizations like GISS. These adjustments add mostly a positive bias.

Please note that the above graph does not represent a change in temperature projections; GISS have effectively changed what they think that actual temperatures were (and their reationship to past temperatures). Which is interesting, is it not?

It is also interesting that GISS and the other agencies almost always put a positive bias on recent temperatures, and a negative bias on past temperatures. This processing has the simple effect of making more recent temperatures seem... well... higher.

Neatly illustrating this point is Climate Skeptic, with a blink graph of actual temperatures measured at the climate stations, against the end result that is passed to GISS from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).


My point was not that all these adjustments were unnecessary (the time of observation adjustment is required, though I have always felt it to be exaggerated). But all of the adjustments are upwards, even those for station quality. The net effect is that there is no global warming signal in the US, at least in the raw data. The global warming signal emerges entirely from the manual adjustments. Which causes one to wonder as to the signal to noise ratio here. And increases the urgency to get more scrutiny on these adjustments.

It only goes through 2000, because I only had the adjustment numbers through 2000.

Part of the problem, you see, of scrutinising the adjustments is that these agencies seem to be extraordinarily coy about releasing the data and algorithms that they use to make said adjustments. Numerous FOI requests (mainly by bloggers) have revealed some of the processes (and exposed some as being deeply flawed) but not, alas, all of them.

What we do know, of course, is that adjustments for recent years are nearly always positive, a slightly bizarre process for anyone who has been following Anthony Watts' surfacestations.org project.

If, for instance, a measurement station has been encroached upon by a population centre in the last twenty years (as many of them have) and this encroachment coincides with increased temperature readings, one might be tempted at least to investigate whether said station is being affected by the urban heat island effect. And if this is the case, the adjustments should be negative, not positive.

As it happens, we can show that this is precisely what GISS is not doing. Here, for instance, is a measuring station situated near a water treatment works in Clarinda, Iowa.



The MMTS temperature sensor is the short pole next to the half pickup truck.

For those of you that don’t know, this station is located at the wastewater treatment plant there. I’ve written many times about the placement of stations at WWTP’s being a bad idea due to the localized heat bubble that is created due to all the effluent coming though. The effect is especially noticeable in winter. Often you’ll see steam/water vapor in the air around these sites in winter, and more than one COOP observer has told our volunteers that snow sometimes does not stick to the ground at WWTP’s.

The larger pole appears to be a gas burnoff torch for excess methane. I can’t say how often it is activated (note the automatic ignitor circuit on the pole) but I can tell you that putting an official NOAA climate thermometer within a few feet of such a device is one of the worst examples of thoughtless station placement on the part of NOAA I’ve ever seen. Here is an example of a methane burn-off device at another WWTP.

We’ll probably never know what the true temperature is in Clarinda because untangling a measurements mess like this is next to impossible. How many days was Tmin and/or Tmax affected at this location by gas burnoff and to what magnitude? We shouldn’t have to ask these questions.

Quite so. But I would imagine that GISS and NOAA have this all under control, yes? I mean, I am sure that they are aware of the placing of the station and have adjusted the temperature readings down, as would seem logical.

Er... no.

And, adding insult to stupidity, the GISTEMP Homogenization adjustment makes the trend go positive, especially in recent years:
...



So, either GISS, NOAA and the rest of this merry crew are lying (in which case, you shouldn't trust a word that they say) or they are very, very bad scientists (in which case, you cannot trust a word that they say).

Of course, I am not discounting the idea that both contentions are true.

Anyway, whatever the reasons, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the data coming out of GISS is highly suspect and, thus, so is the contention that the Earth is actually warming at all. And using such data to back a theory that any warming is caused solely by carbon dioxide (and other greenhouses gases) emitted by the activities of human beings is to discredit the entire hypothesis.
 
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